Stock Farmer family FM recommendations?

[macelena 1,070]

They feel a little bit too good, which i think it was in real life, but having them outfly F-16s seems a bit too much. Also, while the challenge is interesting, the next time i encounter one while playing with a Hun chances are my laptop is going out the window.

[+Gepard 11,304]

The plane MiG-19S was a very good dogfighter in subsonic area.

But for the pilots it was a nightmare. The fuselage fuel cells had a design flaw and so they were leaking under certain conditions like hell. During flight it was so bad, that there was a permanent danger to lit up the plane. Additionally there was a permanent danger of overheating the engines, because the cooling was not efficient enough. Even worse when using afterburner. Then the plane was dangerous for the pilot. IIRC the LSK (east german Air Force) lost 30% of their MiG-19s by engine problems (overheating or fire).

If there would be the chance to modify the FM in that kind, that overheating problems would appear ....

[Wilches 1,172]

Amazing details! Thanks!!!!

[+Coupi 4,388]

I remember the engine overheating was possible with the SFP1/WoX but I'm not sure that is possible with the SF2 games...

[macelena 1,070]

10 minutes ago, Coupi said:

I remember the engine overheating was possible with the SFP1/WoX but I'm not sure that is possible with the SF2 games...

Now that you mention it, i remember blowing up a mod of "Stealth"s F-37 Talon back in the day. It was still not as hot as Jessica Biel in that movie, though. 

[+Coupi 4,388]

Mostly I remember the Mirage III mods of the TMF around 2005. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Coupi

[KJakker 901]

The MiG-19 is missing the following entries at the end of its engine data while the F-16 does have them for its engine. 

GasTempMaxRPM=
GasTempIdleRPM=
GasTempChangeRate=
OverheatTemp=
DamageTempDelta=
OilPressMaxRPM=
OilPressIdleRPM=
OilPressChangeRate=
LowOilPress=
LowOilTempDelta=

[KJakker 901]

I found this info on the RD-9B Turbojet. We might be able to work out updated engine data for the Mig-19.

http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/rd-9b/index.php?en

[Wrench 9,848]

almost all the AI aircraft are missing that engine data. I even check an old extracted WoE 08 level data ini, and it's not there either. I think it was assumed (!!oh that word!!!) that the AI birds would be left that way, as simple targets, and never would need them.

If one REALLY wanted to finagle those statements in, I'd find an engine fairly close in thrust, and just use those (mystre IV, F-100A, etc) and see where it takes you

[KJakker 901]

I pieced this together. Not sure about how to compare fuel consumption in the data I found to the listing in the data file.

[Engine1]
SystemType=JET_ENGINE
InputName=THROTTLE_CONTROL
EngineID=1
HasAfterburner=TRUE
NumAfterburnerStages=1
SLThrustDry=25506.0
SLThrustWet=31882.5
ThrustAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
ThrustPosition=-0.34,0.0,0.0
ThrottleRate=0.4
IdleThrottle=0.10
IdleRPM=0.68
IdleNozzle=0.90
CruiseThrottle=0.37
CruiseRPM=0.82
CruiseNozzle=0.51
MilThrottle=0.65
MilRPM=1.00
MilNozzle=0.51
MaxThrottle=0.78
MaxRPM=1.00
MaxNozzle=0.25
FullABThrottle=1.12
FullABRPM=1.00
FullABNozzle=0.90
AltitudeTableNumData=30
AltitudeTableDeltaX=609.6
AltitudeTableStartX=0.0
AltitudeTableData=1.000,0.952,0.906,0.860,0.816,0.773,0.731,0.691,0.652,0.614,0.578,0.543,0.509,0.477,0.446,0.416,0.388,0.361,0.335,0.303,0.275,0.249,0.227,0.206,0.187,0.170,0.154,0.140,0.127,0.000
DryMachTableNumData=17
DryMachTableDeltaX=0.1
DryMachTableStartX=0.0
DryMachTableData=1.000,0.968,0.952,0.948,0.955,0.975,1.006,1.046,1.098,1.160,1.231,1.305,1.382,1.463,1.545,1.626,0.000
WetMachTableNumData=17
WetMachTableDeltaX=0.1
WetMachTableStartX=0.0
WetMachTableData=1.000,0.979,0.972,0.979,1.000,1.035,1.084,1.149,1.230,1.329,1.448,1.581,1.734,1.908,2.105,2.328,0.000
MaxInletTemperature=860.0
TSFCM0=0.941  
TSFCM1=1.321
AfterburnerTSFCM0=1.600
AfterburnerTSFCM1=1.854
MinFuelFlow=0.02
ExhaustEmitterName=CleanExhaustEmitter
ExhaustPosition=-0.34,-4.53,0.17
ExhaustEffectSize=0.6
AfterburnerNodeName=afterburner_L
AfterburnerEmitterName=AfterburnerEmitter
AfterburnerEffectSize=0.65
FireSuppression=FALSE
MinExtentPosition=-0.68,-4.86,-0.35
MaxExtentPosition=-0.08,-0.50, 0.55
GasTempMaxRPM=650.0
GasTempIdleRPM=550.0
GasTempChangeRate=5.0
OverheatTemp=680.0
DamageTempDelta=300.0
OilPressMaxRPM=45.0
OilPressIdleRPM=40.0
OilPressChangeRate=0.3
LowOilPress=35.0
LowOilTempDelta=400.0

[Engine2]
SystemType=JET_ENGINE
InputName=THROTTLE_CONTROL
EngineID=2
HasAfterburner=TRUE
NumAfterburnerStages=1
SLThrustDry=25506.0
SLThrustWet=31882.5
ThrustAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
ThrustPosition=0.34,0.0,0.0
ThrottleRate=0.4
IdleThrottle=0.10
IdleRPM=0.68
IdleNozzle=0.90
CruiseThrottle=0.37
CruiseRPM=0.82
CruiseNozzle=0.51
MilThrottle=0.65
MilRPM=1.00
MilNozzle=0.51
MaxThrottle=0.78
MaxRPM=1.00
MaxNozzle=0.25
FullABThrottle=1.12
FullABRPM=1.00
FullABNozzle=0.90
AltitudeTableNumData=30
AltitudeTableDeltaX=609.6
AltitudeTableStartX=0.0
AltitudeTableData=1.000,0.952,0.906,0.860,0.816,0.773,0.731,0.691,0.652,0.614,0.578,0.543,0.509,0.477,0.446,0.416,0.388,0.361,0.335,0.303,0.275,0.249,0.227,0.206,0.187,0.170,0.154,0.140,0.127,0.000
DryMachTableNumData=17
DryMachTableDeltaX=0.1
DryMachTableStartX=0.0
DryMachTableData=1.000,0.968,0.952,0.948,0.955,0.975,1.006,1.046,1.098,1.160,1.231,1.305,1.382,1.463,1.545,1.626,0.000
WetMachTableNumData=17
WetMachTableDeltaX=0.1
WetMachTableStartX=0.0
WetMachTableData=1.000,0.979,0.972,0.979,1.000,1.035,1.084,1.149,1.230,1.329,1.448,1.581,1.734,1.908,2.105,2.328,0.000
MaxInletTemperature=860.0
TSFCM0=0.941  
TSFCM1=1.321
AfterburnerTSFCM0=1.600
AfterburnerTSFCM1=1.854
MinFuelFlow=0.02
ExhaustEmitterName=CleanExhaustEmitter
ExhaustPosition=0.34,-4.53,0.17
ExhaustEffectSize=0.6
AfterburnerNodeName=afterburner_R
AfterburnerEmitterName=AfterburnerEmitter
AfterburnerEffectSize=0.65
FireSuppression=FALSE
MinExtentPosition= 0.68,-4.86,-0.35
MaxExtentPosition= 0.08,-0.50, 0.55
GasTempMaxRPM=650.0
GasTempIdleRPM=550.0
GasTempChangeRate=5.0
OverheatTemp=680.0
DamageTempDelta=300.0
OilPressMaxRPM=45.0
OilPressIdleRPM=40.0
OilPressChangeRate=0.3
LowOilPress=35.0
LowOilTempDelta=400.0

 

[macelena 1,070]

12 hours ago, Wrench said:

almost all the AI aircraft are missing that engine data. I even check an old extracted WoE 08 level data ini, and it's not there either. I think it was assumed (!!oh that word!!!) that the AI birds would be left that way, as simple targets, and never would need them.

If one REALLY wanted to finagle those statements in, I'd find an engine fairly close in thrust, and just use those (mystre IV, F-100A, etc) and see where it takes you

Is it possible that these were dumbed down for the AI not to crash them? The stock F-104 FM is incredibly more forgiving than the modded ones, and still they go stupid sometimes. One of the things that frustrate me the most is how sometimes we get AI F-100s fly like they are in a MiG-17s against...MiG-17s,  turning and dumping speed until they are sitting ducks. 

[+baffmeister 1,205]

On 2021-08-17 at 9:45 AM, Gepard said:

The plane MiG-19S was a very good dogfighter in subsonic area.

But for the pilots it was a nightmare. The fuselage fuel cells had a design flaw and so they were leaking under certain conditions like hell. During flight it was so bad, that there was a permanent danger to lit up the plane. Additionally there was a permanent danger of overheating the engines, because the cooling was not efficient enough. Even worse when using afterburner. Then the plane was dangerous for the pilot. IIRC the LSK (east german Air Force) lost 30% of their MiG-19s by engine problems (overheating or fire).

If there would be the chance to modify the FM in that kind, that overheating problems would appear ....

I have a bit more information somewhere, I think based on U.S. tests, but might take awhile to find it. From memory, I think the type had lots of trans sonic issues but as Gepard mentioned, could be very good in the subsonic area with probably 7+ sustained G capability at combat weights. Pakistan seemed very pleased with their Chinese versions.  

This is one of the ThirdWire FM's I would like to take a closer look at but don't have enough info to do anything with it at this point.

[+streakeagle 871]

The problem with MiG-19s is that by the numbers, they were exceptional aircraft. Low drag, high power-to-weight. Then because of the swept wing (rather than a lower aspect ratio delta or trapezoidal used by Mach 2 fighters), it is inherently more agile, too. Compared to the MiG-21, it has only two weaknesses: top speed and stability/control at transonic/supersonic speeds. My question is this: if the MiG-19 was so good, why did the Soviets dump it like a hot potato in favor of the mostly inferior MiG-21?

One big issue with the MiG-19 is Soviet service was that it was flat out dangerous. It could explode in mid flight. Pilots hated it. Also, the USSR, like the USA, was bitten by the speed is life bug and also needed to potentially intercept supersonic bombers, so the MiG-21 was the better short range/high altitude interceptor.

Consider the fact that China kept the MiG-19 and derivatives of it operational for decades. They worked out the kinks and thought it was a great platform.

But look at its combat record in Vietnam. The MiG-19 was only used in small numbers, so you can't draw very good conclusions. But I will say this, despite having fantastic performance, the Vietnamese pilots didn't care for the MiG-19 very much, or more correctly, the Chinese copies they were flying. Some Vietnamese pilots preferred the agility and guns of the MiG-17, others loved the ability to use MiG-21s to engage and disengage at will with quick Atoll shots on unsuspecting and/or overloaded F-4s and F-105s. Like the USSR, the VPAF found the MiG-19 unreliable. But it was MiG-19s that got Major Bob Lodge, who otherwise most likely would have been the first US ace of the war. They got him because of their tactics and his target fixation, not because of the MiG-19's performance. At the same time, the only supersonic gun kill in history was by an F-4 against a MiG-19.

If the MiG-19 was such a fantastic fighter, why didn't it make an impact in the Arab-Israeli wars? First: Israel tended to knock out enemy fighters with pre-emptive strikes while they were sitting on the ground. Second: the one time they were caught with their pants down in 1973, SAMs were the star of the show and the first line fighters were MiG-21s. Many would argue that Arab pilots were not skilled, but if you study the records of both sides, you will find that Egypt had decent pilots, but they were hamstrung by Soviet equipment performance limitations (such as incredibly short range/endurance) and doctrine on top of the exceptionally good planning, training, skill, and luck of the IAF.

In DCS World, the flight model is theoretically exceptionally accurate. The F-5E in a 1 vs 1 is essentially helpless against a properly flown MiG-19PF. The MiG-19 is able to turn better, climb better, and accelerate better. The MiG-21bis is only competitive with afterburner. But continuous use of afterburner kills the endurance of the MiG-21. As the MiG-19 is not commonly flown on multiplayer servers, people who know how to fly them can be very successful since almost no one knows how exceptional their ACM performance can be.

My conclusion about MiG-19 performance is that flight sims do not properly reflect the problems that kept the MiG-19 from being a popular and successful fighter in reality. In flight sims, a MiG-19 with an accurate flight model IS supposed to be a UFO compared to its contemporaries and even much later aircraft until the advent of the US "teen" series fighters. In much the same way the MiG-17 was a problem in Vietnam, the MiG-19 should have been a problem for "teen" fighters until AMRAAM and the AIM-9L/M/X missiles become common. So, maybe China had the right idea to continue using it in parallel with MiG-21 derivatives. But if flight sims modeled the problems that MiG-19s really had and if you only had one life to lose in flight sims, most people wouldn't fly the MiG-19 despite its UFO performance, because no one wants to fly an aircraft that has a better chance of killing you than the enemy.

Now, as it applies to Strike Fighters series games: AI don't use the hard flight model. If you plug in the correct performance numbers for the MiG-19, it will still be a UFO, partly because it really was the good and partly because of the way the AI flight model works. I can say that a skilled pilot flying the MiG-19 in SFP1/WoX mutliplayer was essentially unbeatable by any other aircraft until a patch crippled the MiG-19 a little bit and turned the F-8 Crusader into a magic UFO that could beat all other aircraft.

One fact to consider is that in flight sims, focused on the player, 1 vs 1 performance is everything. But in reality, the slightly inferior F4F beat the hell out of the A6M Zero once US pilots learned how to fly as a team. In DCS World, a lone F-5E has little chance against an AI MiG-19 with high pilot quality. But with two player flown F-5Es vs two AI MiG-19s, the odds go in favor of the players if they use good tactics... except that the AI flight model and gunnery skill is even worse in DCS World than it is in SF series games, so sometimes you just can't beat them even if you properly execute the correct tactics.

Overall, in SF series games,  I never found it necessary to mod the AI enemies. I understood how the AI was flying and could generally beat them. It was actually pleasant to see the AI do something unexpected and beat me every now and then. I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to make the MiG-19 FM better, because the AI doesn't really use the full FM. Learn the vulnerability of the AI's tactics and exploit it, then the FM won't matter as much. SF AI is predominately horizontal turning tactics. Creative use of the vertical, rolling scissors, and "Top Gun" movie style sudden slow down tactics can beat just about any AI no matter how good their flight model is.

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by streakeagle

[macelena 1,070]

20 hours ago, streakeagle said:

Overall, in SF series games,  I never found it necessary to mod the AI enemies. I understood how the AI was flying and could generally beat them. It was actually pleasant to see the AI do something unexpected and beat me every now and then. I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to make the MiG-19 FM better, because the AI doesn't really use the full FM. Learn the vulnerability of the AI's tactics and exploit it, then the FM won't matter as much. SF AI is predominately horizontal turning tactics. Creative use of the vertical, rolling scissors, and "Top Gun" movie style sudden slow down tactics can beat just about any AI no matter how good their flight model is.

 

The thing is, while they are challenging, they never felt like they spoil anything, on the contrary. If anything, it is more about flying with them against the blue side. I could try flying them in 1982 against Israel, though. Not even Tomcats do that well there.