A great disturbance in the Force

[super61 0]

Although heated at times, I think this discourse was needed. As Pete Clemenza said in Godfather I - "every xx years, there's a war to clean up the bad blood...."

[+allenjb42 4,234]

I'm very disappointed in all of you.

 

I finished my post with a Blazing Saddles reference and no one picked up on it.

 

Shame on you for missing out on one of the funniest movies of all time!

Edited December 8, 2007 by allenjb42

[+Tailspin 3]

Its just a courtesy in this community that we extend to each other, to check with another modder before using their work. No one is forcing anyone to do it but it is generally accepted as a common courtesy. If the community was really big, like MSFS, I imagine this would fall by the wayside.

 

I understand completely and agree. Unfortunately courtesy isn't a universal trait among people and we have to deal with that. However cutting off your nose to spite your face is not the answer. If your mods are so important to you that you feel you have to do that then IMHO maybe you should find another hobby. If you feel you need that kind of ultimate control then you surely shouldn't provide them for free because, like has been said, once you put them out there for free you really don't have that much recourse...except to rely on the respect and courtesy of others.

[GwynO 16]

There have always been mod fans in the community that bow and pray to modders for new material.

There have always been modders who feel empowered by having a fan base dependent on them.

If modders weren't glory hounds, there would never be any sneak peaks months or even years before files were ready for download.

The mods would simply be posted when they were usable, perhaps even without a name in the credits other than an email address for tech support.

If modders weren't seeking popularity, they would never be offended by criiticism either.

So what if someone doesn't like your files?

Who cares what is posted about it?

Those that want the files will download them, those that don't want the files will whine about whatever it is they don't like.

To be offended by criticism is indicative of seeking approval in the first place.

 

Since public approval is the "pay" for free user mods, it is nice if the community "pays" the modder for his work.

But modders should recognize that people who are happy frequently make no comment at all, while people who are unhappy are the most vocal.

When you publish a file for everyone to see (or even a preview screenshot), expect to mainly hear from those who have a problem with it.

Consider yourself fortunate if you mainly get a positive response.

No matter how good a modder is, you can't change human nature.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

Including a EULA with free user mods made for this sim is hilarious to me: suggesting that no one should share them or change them without your approval defeats the whole purpose of having an open sim that supports free user mods!

If you post an unlocked file for free download, good luck on enforcing some arbitrary EULA.

There is no precedent in the real world for prosecuting people who share or mod something for no monetary gain when it was free to begin with.

 

Pulling files that were once available for free is equally funny to me.

You may technically own the rights to any file you create, but once it enters the public domain, you pretty much forfeit your right to control distribution.

Arguably, posting any unlocked file at open community websites pretty much makes it public domain.

It is just plain stupid to make a file available to the general public for free for years, then because you get mad at whoever, expect that everyone should stop using/sharing that file.

When I was a kid, there was a very politically incorrect term for someone who offers a gift and then demands it back: Indian-giver.

If someone wants to talk about "class", someone who is an "Indian-giver" has no class.

 

Payware is another story.

Files created for profit clearly cannot be shared without risking legal prosecution.

But even payware has limits to what you can enforce with a EULA.

The idea that of telling someone they can't post screenshots because they show payware addons in them is ludicrous.

It may be your model, but someone else made the game, and the owner of the likeness is the original manufacturer of the object being modeled.

If anyone gets prosecuted over a payware screenshot, it should be the payware provider if they haven't been licensed the right to distribute models based on objects created by very big companies who want their cut for things they designed and built.

 

Even funnier to me is trying to tell someone how to use a mod.

"You can't post that screenshot because it shows our mod being used in ways it wasn't intended!"

Again, the sim is open for a reason and any files produced for it are going to be used to suit the end user's taste.

I would love to see a lawsuit over screenshots showing 3d models from YAP mixed with fantasy elements, such as a Robotech fighter operating from a YAP carrier.

As long as someone paid you for your models and doesn't distribute them for free, you will have a hard time getting a judge to award a conviction for merely showing a screenshot of your files being used in a way you didn't intend.

 

It's cool if you make good mods and distribute them.

It's really cool if your mods are good enough to be payware.

But just because you are a good modder and/or charge money for your mods does not make you king of the game community.

 

At the same time, if you are an end-user, there is an old rule: don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Be kind to modders if you want to continue to get mods from them.

 

Over the years, many of the most popular modders have been easily offended and pulled their files.

If you can't live without a certain mod: download it while it is available and burn it to a cd/dvd and/or store it on a mirrored RAID array.

Sometimes mods come and go pretty quick around here.

 

If you are a late-comer and want an old mod that was pulled, posting such a request publicly will stir up a hornet's nest like this one.

Simply PM/email long-time veterans of the community who will usually help you directly or send you to someone who can help you without disturbing the Force at all.

 

IMHO The most comprehensive and sane analysis of the disturbance to date, Respect Streak

[Platinum Rogue 48]

Out of respect for all past, present and future SF modders, I've read this thread from start to finish. It took 45 minutes. In that 45 minutes I could have taken a Strike Eagle or Tornado up for a gig over the Suez Canal. I found the thread educational, but I can't help thinking I would have enjoyed flying the mission more. Mods are great, and the very essence of what the SF series 'is'.

 

Some years ago I made some skins for EECH, I hosted them myself for a while and they were mirrored on a couple of other community sites. I got generally good responses to them from 20 or so guys on SimHQ, and over 1500 downloads from my FTP. My interest in EECH eventually faded and I let the skins become a memory. Quite recently I fired EECH up again and downloaded the 'newest mods', only to find my skins were still being used, albeit enhanced with a cool new weathered effect. Did I feel cheated? Did I feel my rights had been violated? Heck no, I felt quite proud of the fact that the majority of EECH modders thought my stuff good enough to use as a base for something even better, even 5 or 6 years later. That for me was a better pay-off than 2000 posts/emails telling me how great my stuff was (which I didn't get )

 

It's a pity some members of this community have a different agenda.

[+p10ppy 2]

A small suggestion

There are a number of licenses specially set up to deal with Internet communities and creative control of released work, They are clean and in use by many artists and makers

 

Personally I have always released on the Internet under one of the Creative commons licenses, Usually: No commercial use, and Share and share alike

http://creativecommons.org/

 

These seem to me to give a modicum of legal control as well as ensuring maximum benefit of your work to a public domain based community

Anything more restrictive (IMHO) leads to ill will and frustration all round

 

Ultimately it comes down to the individual’s community spirit and their outlook on the public domain… (Both individual creators and end-users)

 

But as Tailspin said, another hobby is probably more suitable if you have large issues revolving around control and ownership on the Internet

[sparkomatic 7]

- what the hell happened here...

[Guest Sony Tuckson]

we, as individuals. ;)

[Bulldog 0]

Imperial, anyone?

 

Hehe..just check my avatar.

[Piloto 3]

we, as individuals. ;)

 

 

Well sometines we all ashame of others as "individuals"

 

im even more ashamed of some atitudes and see all this talk go to waste but is nothing i wasnt expecting

[Silverbolt 104]

here we go again...

All man at your battlestation

this is not a Drill!

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

here we go again...

All man at your battlestation

this is not a Drill!

 

Of course it's not a drill... it is the Hammer! Jack Hammer! :moil:

 

J/K

Edited December 14, 2007 by TX3RN0BILL

[Silverbolt 104]

haaaaaaaaaa

xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

foget abou it !

[column5 63]

This is a long-lasting can of eels... ;)

[+Major Lee 18]

Well I think we all have learned something today.

 

1. Some modders have a massive ego

2. Some modders won't help people

3. Some modders want group hugs

4. Some modders think group hugs are gay

5. The EELs have not left.

 

6. Some modders will help people

7. Some modders will help other modders make new stuff for the SF community.

Let's all get back to work...

Edited December 14, 2007 by Major Lee

[+Typhoid 231]

6. Some modders will help people

7. Some modders will help other modders make new stuff for the SF community.

Let's all get back to work...

 

Right On!!!!!!!

 

[+Baltika 85]

6. Some modders will help people

7. Some modders will help other modders make new stuff for the SF community.

Let's all get back to work...

 

 

Gets my vote

[+Zurawski 33]

.... and I still have a really massive EEL.

[Wrench 9,847]

Ok, with that 'fish story'...I think this one has run its course. This from a guy in a dress!!!

 

I'd like to thank everyone who contributed thoughts, of any type. I think we've all gained something here. Let's not loose sight of the larger picture...let's help each other, as best we can, as often as we can.

 

But like the Major said, it's time to get back to work.

 

I'll leave it open just a little longer, and then shut it down.

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[column5 63]

I'll leave it open just a little longer, and then shut it down.

 

Cool because I just wanted to say that any eel that leaps out of a dress at me is going to get the filleting knife.