Gun damage

[serverandenforcer]

Can only four to six rounds from the guns take out a real world fighter jet? This is something that I've found quite odd in this game. I would think that about fifty to eighty rounds would be the reasonable amount needed to down a bird. I know that possibly a few good place rounds into the internal/external fuel tanks can easily cause catastrophic damage, but is it that easy to hit the tanks? I would think that the rounds would have a greater chance in hitting the wings and engines, as oppose to the fuel tanks, causing some nice smoke action going on from the targeted aircraft.

[Guest Bounder]

Can only four to six rounds from the guns take out a real world fighter jet? This is something that I've found quite odd in this game. I would think that about fifty to eighty rounds would be the reasonable amount needed to down a bird. I know that possibly a few good place rounds into the internal/external fuel tanks can easily cause catastrophic damage, but is it that easy to hit the tanks? I would think that the rounds would have a greater chance in hitting the wings and engines, as oppose to the fuel tanks, causing some nice smoke action going on from the targeted aircraft.

most def it can happen shoot even Infantry are trained to volley fire in hopes of just a few rounds to kill a bird fast mover or slow, and i get alot of wing and eng damage and still fly all the time if it was real my crew chief would be kicking my butt big time lol. Just remember if your counting the tracers there are four rounds in front of ,and behind every tracer. So if your counting 5 tracers thats really 20 rounds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:M60closeup2002.jpg

Edited December 27, 2007 by Bounder

[+Gepard]

Guns are overmodelled in SFP1 seria. Its a well known problem. But there are some modded planes (with added armour) which can survive a lot of hits till they come down.

[+Stary]

I noticed that most of third party helicopters have increased armour, at least they don't go down after two hits from AAA, which happened to my A-10 once (checked log after mission, it was shilka btw)

[+Dave]

Well depends on what you are shooting it with. Cannons rounds, it only takes a few even one for that matter. People have to remember they are high explosive shells. The B-29's in Korea were known to blow up after a few hits from the Mig-15's cannons. Machine guns however are a different story.

[marlin]

Guns are overmodelled in SFP1 seria. Its a well known problem. But there are some modded planes (with added armour) which can survive a lot of hits till they come down.

 

Guns aren't over modelled. Most aircraft have no armour modelled this is rather easy to fix but time consuming which is probally why no one has rectified it yet.

[Rambler 1-1]

Well depends on what you are shooting it with. Cannons rounds, it only takes a few even one for that matter. People have to remember they are high explosive shells. The B-29's in Korea were known to blow up after a few hits from the Mig-15's cannons. Machine guns however are a different story.

 

Exactly. Also, early fighters were a little on the fragile side, so at high G's and high speeds with all that fuel on board a cannon round or a bunch of machine gun to an essential area under the stresses of combat could bring a plane down.

[serverandenforcer]

So a quick burst of 5 to 10 rounds from an F-16C Blk 30 is able to down a Flanker?

[+Gocad]

So a quick burst of 5 to 10 rounds from an F-16C Blk 30 is able to down a Flanker?

 

As I said in another thread you can't really say that x hits will bring down a plane. But most jets are rather filled with somewhat complicated technology, which is often not meant to withstand a lot of damage.

So I would say that is likely that 5 to 10 hits might bring a Flanker into trouble, but that at the same time there is no guarantee that those hits would down it.

 

In the end, it's all about shot placement...

Edited December 28, 2007 by Gocad

[Platinum Rogue]

The Vulcan has a ROF of approx 1000 rpm. Loosing off 5-10 rounds takes around half a second.

 

If I was able to shoot accurately enough to down an aircraft with a half-second burst I'd be happy with that too

[+Gepard]

5 or 10 rounds of caliber 20 mm would not harm a Flanker. Caliber 30 mm would do it. Soviet estimates made in 70th said, that around 6 30 mm hits would kill a F-4 Phantom. But there are reports that planes withstand heavier hits. My favorit is a MiG-15 which was hit over 200 times by 12,7 mm Machine gun and survived and a iraqi MiG-21 which was rippled from nose to tail with Machinegun 20 mm. This bird was repaired in Dresden and has flown again against the Iran.

Other sources tells the story, that even single hits destroyed a plane. It depends where the bullet hit.

[+Dave]

5 or 10 rounds of caliber 20 mm would not harm a Flanker. Caliber 30 mm would do it. Soviet estimates made in 70th said, that around 6 30 mm hits would kill a F-4 Phantom. But there are reports that planes withstand heavier hits. My favorit is a MiG-15 which was hit over 200 times by 12,7 mm Machine gun and survived and a iraqi MiG-21 which was rippled from nose to tail with Machinegun 20 mm. This bird was repaired in Dresden and has flown again against the Iran.

Other sources tells the story, that even single hits destroyed a plane. It depends where the bullet hit.

 

Exactly, all depends on where you hit it. So to say 5 to 10 wouldn't harm a Flanker is inaccurate. 5 to 10 rounds can take out anything if its hit in the sweet spot.

[+JediMaster]

I remember watching a program once on the M61A1 Vulcan and it's high ROF. They mentioned the reason the US used the smaller 20mm cannon was so they could get that high ROF. The 23mm+ cannons out there (other than the Hog's GAU-8) have far lower rates of fire.

The idea is that a fighter-sized target flying at 90 degrees to your flight path would be hit by around half a dozen shells as it crossed in front of you, assuming straight and level flight for shooter and target for this argument. Against a MiG-21-sized target, that was deemed enough hits for a probable kill. Granted the target may take more to go down, but it will likely be in very bad shape as those shells have impacted along the entire length of the target, not all in one spot.

This doesn't mean the target explodes in a big fireball, but if the plane is hurt enough that the pilot must either eject or RTB, that's sufficient. In real life, of course. Sims tend not to count damaged "mission kills" as real kills.

[+MigBuster]

Stick 1 round into a spinning Jet engine - that should do it :)

[+Crusader]

well...

every plane can be downed by a single round.

depends on several things of course...

 

several years ago a corsair was f ound on a pacific island... pilot still strapped in. A single rifle bullet pierced the plane frfom below, all the way through the cockpit and into the pilots head. Japanese infantry simply fired a volley with their rifles straight up, on command, when US planes made the mistake of flying low over jungle....

 

one round.

 

all liquid cooled engine planes in WWII had an "achilles heel" - the cooling system. pierced by a single rifle bullet the coling fluid was gone ( very few panes had cut-off valves installed ) and the plane went one way only.. down.

 

Many events are known where only a couple of 20mm cannon shells were fired ( 5 to 7) which sent a plane down in flames. it was Bf 109F and G pilots which only had a single cannon ( early on) and had to get real close... Hartmann, Rall, Graf and Marseille to name a few.

 

why are mig-15/17 so hard to kill ?

their wings are "dry". no fueltanks int he wings. most israeli guncam footage of migs show black oil coming off them, since one had to literally smash the engine ...

and..

another factor is the ammo loaded, High explosive shells are actually bad for A2A since they explode on impact, makes nice holes into the skin but often doesnt damage vital parts further inside the fuselage.( thats how a mig-21 can survive a series of 20mm hits...) API ( Armor Piercing Incendary) is the way to go .. they smash through the skin into the vital parts and then ignite the whole mess... excellent.... ( mig-21's have fuelltanks and their compressed air reservoir in the fuselage hump - thats the reason why most mig-21 guncam footage shows them burning like hell) and the IDFAF knew exactly where to aim for ( if possible). MiG-21's also have fueltanks in the wings.

 

all the talk about cannons.. in the end its only the hits that count, some cannon setups makes it easier than others.. thats about all.

a 30mm HE shell might blows a big hole into the skin but doesnt damage anything vital...

a 20mm API shell goes right through into the inner parts and ignites the kite, blowing it up ..

 

get the idea?

 

another thing is all the stress put on a plane in a dogfight at 400 to 600 knots....

thats why evena big hole made by a HE shell can bring down a plane, cause the air "catched" by the holes rips it apart further - structual damage.. add a few G's .. and one more goes down.

Thats how the German MK 108 30 mm cannon worked against B-17 and B-24's... making big holes, 3-5 hits were all it took... even less for a B-24. The ammo used were special High Explosive" shells, which had few fragments but a big charge. The main damage was caused by the resulting high gas pressure upon impact.

 

This type of ammunition is a exception of the "normal" HE shell mentioned above, since the high ammount of explosive it contained weas simply to much for a airplanes structure, it didnt have to go "inside".

 

thats all for now.

[+Brain32]

In WW2(I don't remember who made the test/study, US I think) they got following results:

12,7(.50cal) - 20 hits to down a fighter sized plane

20mm - 6-7 hits to down a fighter...

30mm - 1-2 hits to down a fighter...

 

Ofcourse anything can be brought down with one round, but you have to look at average.

I find the power of .50cal pretty amusing in SF series, I went against MiG-15 and MiG-17, sure it was possible to give it a good burst and watch it fly away or just smoke, but MOST of my kills were about heavy and I really mean heavy structural damage(complete tail sections blown off, wings sawed off etc.) That is a bit too much, fires,cut controls, engine damage etc is Ok but too much heavy structural damage is occuring atleast according to everything I ever saw about 50cal's

It doesen't really bother me but if we want to talk accuracy....

Edited December 28, 2007 by Brain32

[sparkomatic]

same concept as when the Germans used high-ROF like the MG42...when the target is deftly trying to be not shot, you need max lead as quickly as possible

 

look at B-17s from WW2...some came home looking like they lost a fight with a Wolverine...others took a single hit and met ether

 

this is one of those topics that can slip into the nether regions rather quickly