WOV F-4 Phantoms

[WLJet]

Thank you Wagsled and all those who had replied/commented on my question concerning the F-4 radar. :)

 

By the way, what does MTBF stands for?

[FastCargo]

By the way, what does MTBF stands for?

 

Mean Time Between Failure.

 

Just like it sounds...high number is good, low number is bad.

 

FastCargo

[WLJet]

Mean Time Between Failure.

 

Just like it sounds...high number is good, low number is bad.

 

FastCargo

 

Thanks FastCargo! :yes:

[Talos]

I love hearing stories like this, they are extremely interesting. There's a retired 2-star who attends the church I go to and I talk with him a lot about being an F-105 pilot with the 92nd in Vietnam. I've been fascinated with this thread and hearing the voice of a real-life Phantom Phlyer.

 

Something I've always wondered was how the different models compared overall in terms of flight performance and characteristics, especially between the Air Force models and Navy models overall.

[Viper6]

Wagsled....cheers for that!

 

It's info like this which is absolutely invaluable and makes one have a deeper appreciation of what you guys did for real. I could listen and read about such things til the cows come home.

Thanks again.

Thank you so much Mr. Wagsled for your time and insight. It is a Honor to have you here with us! I thank you for your service in Nam and for any stories you may share with us in the future. My ears are always open for you. For those of you that have the talent to design missions, you may want to hopefully talk with Mr. Wagsled and come up with some F-4 missions (just a thought)

[Spinners]

A cracking thread this!

 

Out of interest, whose F-4e is the most authentic - the Third Wire stock or the The Mirage Factory version?

[MigBuster]

"I occasionally used an intentional departure from controlled flight as a guns defensive move - but only when I had lots of altitude to recover - and only when I had a RIO I trusted not to eject too quickly 'cause he didn't know what I was doing!"

 

 

Thats amazing - many thanks for contributing on here Wagsled.

 

 

 

[wagsled]

A cracking thread this!

 

Out of interest, whose F-4e is the most authentic - the Third Wire stock or the The Mirage Factory version?

 

Spinners,

 

I haven't tried the Mirage Factory E-model yet, nor any of their other Phantoms. This probably sounds silly. but I don't "fly" Phantoms too often in ThirdWire games...not sure why, probably because I enjoy turning and burning (A-4 Scooter and later the Hornet were both good for that and sort of spoiled me!). I'll pull the Mirage Factory model down and give both versions a quick eval, then post my thoughts...for what they're worth! LOL.

 

Cheers,

 

Wagsled

[GreyCap]

I still don't know how you guys dogfight in the F-4! I gave it another try and I couldn't even split-S without that near stall buffeting. I guess I'm pulling to hard on the stick, but this is a fighter plane isn't it? I'm not even pulling any G's! I guess I'm doing something wrong...

Wagsled do a little dogfighting please and let me know if you shoot anything down lol

[+76.IAP-Blackbird]

I like the F-4 as a dogfighter, but you have to fight with them like with german WW2 planes.. a Focke is different than a Spitfire so a Phantom is different than a F-16.

 

Phantom is a true B&Z Fighter

[krgf15]

Dont forget that the BCD and J models on there are hard wing too. Pluss, I would imagine that you need to watch the accelerometer to make sure you dont over g if you are looking for realism.

 

I know there are some F-4 aircrew on here, and I have flown an F-15 for exactly one time for 3 minutes (incentive ride) and from what I have seen, you dont move the stick alot to get response.

 

But I dont know if the F-4 had any type of CAS like the F-15 either. I do remember that the E-model I rode in (mine was cross country) had alot of buffeting under g-load when we were still full. We were CFT with no bags, so that was about 22,000 pounds of fuel.

[+Dave]

I guess I'm doing something wrong...

 

Don't quit your day job?

[GreyCap]

Don't quit your day job?

 

 (there was another emoticon I was tempted to use...)

[+Typhoid]

 (there was another emoticon I was tempted to use...)

 

I wonder what that one might have been.......

 

 

[wagsled]

I still don't know how you guys dogfight in the F-4! I gave it another try and I couldn't even split-S without that near stall buffeting. I guess I'm pulling to hard on the stick, but this is a fighter plane isn't it? I'm not even pulling any G's! I guess I'm doing something wrong...

Wagsled do a little dogfighting please and let me know if you shoot anything down lol

 

 

Hi GreyCap,

 

Well, I did a little evaluation this evening as you suggested...tried both the stock ThirdWire F-4E and the Mirage Factory F-4E IDF (Early) in dogfights against both MiG-21's and MiG-17's. I did this in the SFP1 patched to the latest with Operation Tainted Cigar Version 2 installed. All setting for flight model, weapons, enemy skill, etc. were set on Hard. I will say that I don't set the G-Effect on Hard - I use "Easy" - because I could always pull more g than this simulator allows you to do without greying out. The g-effect is just set too low.

 

Anyway, I managed to get a few kills with both models and didn't get shot down (although I did depart the Mirage Factory model once and couldn't recover - had to punch out). I felt that neither model was truly representative, but that the stock model seemed to have performance more in line with what I remember, while the Mirage Factory model seemed to have more representative flying qualities. I looked at the numbers in the FM for both and, assuming I remember correctly, there are some significant errors in both FM's. For example, in the stock model you find:

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=61.29

CruiseSpeed=216.50

ClimbSpeed=407.97

CornerSpeed=196.08

MaxG=8.50

MaxSpeedSL=377.57

MachLimit=2.06

PitchDamper=0.7

RollDamper=0.3

YawDamper=0.0

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

The speeds listed are in m/sec and using conversions to knots, I believe the following is more representative of the real F-4E performance. By the way, the same numbers for the Mirage Factory F-4E are even further off what I believe is correct.

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=69.45

CruiseSpeed=216.50

ClimbSpeed=205.77

CornerSpeed=216.5

MaxG=7.50

MaxSpeedSL=318.00

MachLimit=2.14

PitchDamper=0.75

RollDamper=0.4

YawDamper=0.15

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

The F-4E was limited to 7.5g at combat weight or above - anything more was considered an over-stress and required a visual inspection for possible damage. You'll notice I've also tweaked the pitch, roll, and yaw damper settings slightly. I think this is more representative of the F-4E handling qualities, but still a long way from the "fine tuning" I would like to give the FM if I had more time - and knowledge. There are a lot more FM settings that I'd like to look at, but I don't know enough about how they were set up and I'd probably just screw them up if I messed about too much.

 

Anyway, to answer your question about which is more "realistic", they both have strengths and weaknesses. Probably somewhere between the two is a good FM - I just don't know enough to make all the right changes.

 

Good hunting and check six!

 

Wagsled

[Syrinx]

This is exactly the kind of thing we need here...no matter what us armchair jockeys think of the flight models it's nice to get some real input...thankyou Wagsled.

[+Typhoid]

Hi GreyCap,

 

Well, I did a little evaluation this evening as you suggested...tried both the stock ThirdWire F-4E and the Mirage Factory F-4E IDF (Early) in dogfights against both MiG-21's and MiG-17's. I did this in the SFP1 patched to the latest with Operation Tainted Cigar Version 2 installed. All setting for flight model, weapons, enemy skill, etc. were set on Hard. I will say that I don't set the G-Effect on Hard - I use "Easy" - because I could always pull more g than this simulator allows you to do without greying out. The g-effect is just set too low.

 

Anyway, I managed to get a few kills with both models and didn't get shot down (although I did depart the Mirage Factory model once and couldn't recover - had to punch out). I felt that neither model was truly representative, but that the stock model seemed to have performance more in line with what I remember, while the Mirage Factory model seemed to have more representative flying qualities. I looked at the numbers in the FM for both and, assuming I remember correctly, there are some significant errors in both FM's. For example, in the stock model you find:

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=61.29

CruiseSpeed=216.50

ClimbSpeed=407.97

CornerSpeed=196.08

MaxG=8.50

MaxSpeedSL=377.57

MachLimit=2.06

PitchDamper=0.7

RollDamper=0.3

YawDamper=0.0

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

The speeds listed are in m/sec and using conversions to knots, I believe the following is more representative of the real F-4E performance. By the way, the same numbers for the Mirage Factory F-4E are even further off what I believe is correct.

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=69.45

CruiseSpeed=216.50

ClimbSpeed=205.77

CornerSpeed=216.5

MaxG=7.50

MaxSpeedSL=318.00

MachLimit=2.14

PitchDamper=0.75

RollDamper=0.4

YawDamper=0.15

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

The F-4E was limited to 7.5g at combat weight or above - anything more was considered an over-stress and required a visual inspection for possible damage. You'll notice I've also tweaked the pitch, roll, and yaw damper settings slightly. I think this is more representative of the F-4E handling qualities, but still a long way from the "fine tuning" I would like to give the FM if I had more time - and knowledge. There are a lot more FM settings that I'd like to look at, but I don't know enough about how they were set up and I'd probably just screw them up if I messed about too much.

 

Anyway, to answer your question about which is more "realistic", they both have strengths and weaknesses. Probably somewhere between the two is a good FM - I just don't know enough to make all the right changes.

 

Good hunting and check six!

 

Wagsled

 

 

Awesome, thanks!!

 

very interesting observation of the grey out.

[GreyCap]

Outstanding input Wagsled! Going to give your new values a go!

[mppd]

Wag,

What values are you using for earlier model F-4s? I think that we'd all love to see them posted! Thanks again for the input.

 

Mike D.

[Viper6]

Will this info lead to new FMs for The Mighty F-4? Man this is sure exciting! (at least for me) I hope that we will be blessed with some F-4 specific single missions, even some "what if" missions would be soooo cool! I do not have the talent to produce such missions, but, I hope some of you do.

[+kreelin]

....

Anyway, I managed to get a few kills with both models and didn't get shot down (although I did depart the Mirage Factory model once and couldn't recover - had to punch out). I felt that neither model was truly representative, but that the stock model seemed to have performance more in line with what I remember, while the Mirage Factory model seemed to have more representative flying qualities. ....

 

Thanks a lot for the feedback Wag TMF F-4E FM are optimized for WOI so performances or depart recovery for instance are little bit skewed...

WOI flight model engine is really different compared with SFP1 ones.

 

And thanks for the new "FlightControl" values too

[Icarus999]

I still don't know how you guys dogfight in the F-4! I gave it another try and I couldn't even split-S without that near stall buffeting. I guess I'm pulling to hard on the stick, but this is a fighter plane isn't it? I'm not even pulling any G's! I guess I'm doing something wrong...

Wagsled do a little dogfighting please and let me know if you shoot anything down lol

 

 

I spend a lot of time flying the F-4 in this sim, I have no problems downing migs or anything else from that time period and I play mostly mid eighties combat scenarios. Never fight on the migs terms, The F-4 is really more of an interceptor than a fighterplane The F-4 has a ton of power use it to your advantage. Download the Fantastic F-4S-L and take on some mig 23's or 25's for a change of pace.

Then take the F-4S up against a few Mig -17s and keep it vertical- I still have a lot of room for improvement in the energy management catagory but if i get shot down it is usually a SAM not a Mig that gets me. Rule # 1 -keep your speed up!!! I am betting that you are getting low and slow against Mig-17's wich will almost never lead to anything but an ass full of 23mm.

 

I am also willing to bet a big part of your problem are the early versions of the Aim-9 and Aim-7 missiles of the 60's and early 70's

 

p.s if you want a real challenge try the stock WOE campeign that has you chasing Migs in an F-105.

[wagsled]

Thanks a lot for the feedback Wag TMF F-4E FM are optimized for WOI so performances or depart recovery for instance are little bit skewed...

WOI flight model engine is really different compared with SFP1 ones.

 

And thanks for the new "FlightControl" values too

 

 

Good input on the WOI differences, Kreelin. I felt that might be the case. When I departed controlled flight in the F-4E IDF (in WOI) and entered a spin, the spin recovery was standard, i.e. throttle - idle, stick - full forward, ailerons - neutral, rudder - full opposite the spin direction. Worked as it did in the real F-4E. When I departed with the same F-4E model in SFP1, I could not recover from the spin. So, obviously, you have hit the nail on the head!

 

By the way, do you know how to put the standard ThirdWire F-4's (all models) into WOI and have them work? I thought that might be a good test of the various FM's.

 

Thanks and cheers,

 

Wagsled

[+kreelin]

Good input on the WOI differences, Kreelin. I felt that might be the case. When I departed controlled flight in the F-4E IDF (in WOI) and entered a spin, the spin recovery was standard, i.e. throttle - idle, stick - full forward, ailerons - neutral, rudder - full opposite the spin direction. Worked as it did in the real F-4E. When I departed with the same F-4E model in SFP1, I could not recover from the spin. So, obviously, you have hit the nail on the head!

 

To say the truth, it's possible to have the F-4E IDF FM with "realistic" depart and spin for SFP1 / WOE but I'm too lazy to rework on it

 

By the way, do you know how to put the standard ThirdWire F-4's (all models) into WOI and have them work? I thought that might be a good test of the various FM's.

 

Well you can import all stock SFP1/WOE into WOI but they won't fly correctly... You'll need to upgrade each FM

[+Crusader]

To fly the other stock F-4 variants in WOI, you have to copy their plane folders from SF/WOV/WOE ( which hold the stock skins and a single "main" ini only) into WOI, then extract all their other files ( ini , lod and cockpit texture files) from the SF/WOV/WOI \Objects\Objectdata.cat archive ( using this tool - http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...mp;showfile=343 ) .

The aircraft files are all in the lower quarter of the cat archive.

Move the extracted files into their respective plane folder, you'll need to make a new "cockpit" folder where all the cockpit textures and the cockpit lod goes.

The plane lod files and all inis go into the planes main folder ( see attached snapshots which show file hierachy by example on the F-4J )

 

For testing, keep in mind that all other jet games except WOI are presently at the code level of v08.30.06 and the FMs are optimized for it, so flying with those old versions in WOI isnt representative of the new WOI code.