+Dave 2,322 Posted October 22, 2009 Been going through my books, researching on many many air raids in the history of warfare and one raid always stands out in my mind. Operation Tidal Wave AKA the raid on Polesti. If something could go wrong it did. But man those guys had balls the size of church bells. Not taking anything away from the great raids of Korea and Vietnam and even our allies like the Dambusters, but holy s**t batman talk about intense. The Polesti Raiders rank number 1 in my list of bombing missions where uncommon valor was a common virtue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rotarycrazy 4 Posted October 22, 2009 Been going through my books, researching on many many air raids in the history of warfare and one raid always stands out in my mind. Operation Tidal Wave AKA the raid on Polesti. If something could go wrong it did. But man those guys had balls the size of church bells. Not taking anything away from the great raids of Korea and Vietnam and even our allies like the Dambusters, but holy s**t batman talk about intense. The Polesti Raiders rank number 1 in my list of bombing missions where uncommon valor was a common virtue. those guys where brave, I remember seeing a documentary about those raids a few years back and you could see the planes being hit and braking into pieces,the smoke of the refineries being hit rose so hi they look like special effects in a modern movie, its hard to belive what those guys did knowing what was waiting for them getting on that plane was an act of amazing valor I dont remember the stats but I think it was 4000 AAA in the area? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+comrpnt 16 Posted October 22, 2009 Hi Dave, you're not wrong. I read a vivid account of the raid in this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eighth-Air-Force-American-Britain/dp/1845132211 Nail biting stuff. This is worth a look - in case you've not seen it - some great shots of low flying in-bound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWO7UqP7acc&NR=1 Regards, Paul. :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakai 2 Posted October 22, 2009 There was an amazing assortment of AAA in the ploesti area, and not to mention the german fighters. At low altitude, the 109 and 190 were in a much better tactical situation then intercepting at 26,000 ft. The escorts also had to fly lower to stay with their charges. I read somewhere that while on a temp deployment, Hartmann shot down something like 7 Mustangs in the ploesti area. I can imagine that finally getting to pounce american heavies from a solid alt advantage in the thick air down low was a glimmer of hope for german fighter pilots as their world was begining to crash down around them. I salute all the airmen and ground crew who took part in the Ploesti raids! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Eject Posted October 23, 2009 Hi Dave, you're not wrong. I read a vivid account of the raid in this book: http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/1845132211 Nail biting stuff. This is worth a look - in case you've not seen it - some great shots of low flying in-bound: http://www.youtube.c...WO7UqP7acc&NR=1 Regards, Paul. :-) I watch through to the end the U-Tube clips. To me it's a movie, not real bombing. How did the filming of both side, the pilots the dropping of the bombs, the close up shot of the Germany's radar and men manning the air def units? Same cameraman? Impossible... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Jimbib 747 Posted October 23, 2009 I watch through to the end the U-Tube clips. To me it's a movie, not real bombing. How did the filming of both side, the pilots the dropping of the bombs, the close up shot of the Germany's radar and men manning the air def units? Same cameraman? Impossible... I think you need to actually read the description of the video before posting. It is clearly labelled as a montage of both Allied and German footage. Besides, who said anything about just one camera operator? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gepard 11,323 Posted October 23, 2009 The Ploesti strikes were really heavy, but to call it the greatest mission? I doubt. The air defence of the fuel production centres in middle germany was much denser than the Ploesti flak. No, the greatest air strike ever was the air attack operation on the 21.June 1941 to start the Operation Barbarossa. With one swep to annihilate nearly the entire soviet air force on the ground, this is what i call great. The No.2 were the israeli Operation Moked which annihilated the egyptian, jordan and syrian Air Forces at nearly one day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Dave 2,322 Posted October 23, 2009 The Ploesti strikes were really heavy, but to call it the greatest mission? I doubt. The air defence of the fuel production centres in middle germany was much denser than the Ploesti flak. No, the greatest air strike ever was the air attack operation on the 21.June 1941 to start the Operation Barbarossa. With one swep to annihilate nearly the entire soviet air force on the ground, this is what i call great. The No.2 were the israeli Operation Moked which annihilated the egyptian, jordan and syrian Air Forces at nearly one day. Not greatest in how well it went, greatest is how big of balls you had to have to even do it. You are misunderstanding what I am trying to convey. Those missions were good but the pucker factory was not there in the extreme like it was at Polesti. (Which produced 5 Medals of Honor, 3 of which were posthumously) Fly a Mirage in a sneak attack.......or fly low level in a B-24 with 4000 anti aircraft guns that know you are coming? Which one would you crap your pants more? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted October 23, 2009 Well, if it´s about the balls requirement, i would think about Doolitle´s raid, or maybe Pearl Harbor (althought it was a surprise, hasty attack). Of course, counting the Kamikaze strikes as of a different kind. I have not a quite deep knowledge about the real circumstances of bombing operations in WWII, however, i would take the risk to fall in popular culture unaccuracies and place my money on Doolitle´s raid. Perhaps thier casualties where comparable to those of other bombing raids, and bomber crews of the flying fortresses who weren´t meant to survive (statistically) will rarely be credited thier sacrifice properly, as they deserved, but the unprecedented profile calls the attention upon the Doolitle´s Raid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Dave 2,322 Posted October 23, 2009 Well, if it´s about the balls requirement, i would think about Doolitle´s raid, or maybe Pearl Harbor (althought it was a surprise, hasty attack). Of course, counting the Kamikaze strikes as of a different kind. I have not a quite deep knowledge about the real circumstances of bombing operations in WWII, however, i would take the risk to fall in popular culture unaccuracies and place my money on Doolitle´s raid. Perhaps thier casualties where comparable to those of other bombing raids, and bomber crews of the flying fortresses who weren´t meant to survive (statistically) will rarely be credited thier sacrifice properly, as they deserved, but the unprecedented profile calls the attention upon the Doolitle´s Raid The Doolittle Raid does rank up there but with the Operation Tidal Wave, crews pressed the attack when more things went wrong than right. The Doolittles Raid biggest glitch was they were spotted early so they had to leave early, thus creating problems down the road. The morale to the US public was overwhelming for as little damage they did. The amount of problems the Polesti crews ran into should of scrubbed the mission altogether. But somehow they made it work. 1. Lead navigation plane crashed into the ocean 2. 10 crews aborted mission 3. One squadron commander went the wrong way (which had the lead nav plane not crashed wouldn't of happened) 4. Train flak traps and airborne fighters ready to intercept 5. Strict radio silence made coordination a nightmare. 6. Axis forces knew they were coming With all that and more, they said to hell with it and attacked anyway. The Polesti Raid only took the lives of 310 crewman, with over 100 captured. 177 planes took off, only 88 made it back and well over 50% of these were battle damaged beyond repair. That price paid for only 40% of the oil refining capacity to be diminished for about a month, after repairs, it actually picked up a production increase. So far this raid still ranks amongst the biggest successful failures. Why I say a failure? The facilities were not knocked out of action for the war. Which was the goal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaolin 0 Posted October 23, 2009 Well, if it's about the balls it takes to fly the raid, every single voluntary flown kamikaze mission would be above the Polesti raid - a mission you can only end successful if you die... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Dave 2,322 Posted October 23, 2009 Well, if it's about the balls it takes to fly the raid, every single voluntary flown kamikaze mission would be above the Polesti raid - a mission you can only end successful if you die... That was just stupidity. I give them morons no credit for anything. "Hey guys, I got an idea, we will fly our planes with our pilots into ships. What do you think?" "Are you going to do it?" "Hell no. I am needed to keep from losing the war." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaolin 0 Posted October 23, 2009 That was just stupidity. I give them morons no credit for anything. "Hey guys, I got an idea, we will fly our planes with our pilots into ships. What do you think?" "Are you going to do it?" "Hell no. I am needed to keep from losing the war." Don't get me wrong (I know it's a pretty emotional topic - epecially for Americans), but the basic idea of kamikaze is not THAT dumb - it has a strong psycological effect on the opponents, and a higher precision than automatic guiding systems of the time. Don't forget the cultural difference - a single life didn't count that much... And every military - be it then or now - sees soldiers who give their lives for others as "heroes" (even if it doesn't really save anybodies life - as long as "the others" die, everything is ok...). You can call me a cynic, but in my eyes there are no heroes in a war - only victims - some alive, some not (and I really don't know which ones are the more fortunate)... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lexx_Luthor 57 Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) Its really a Catch 22. Maybe most every bombing raid took guts or "balls" ... Dave you set this one up badly hehe!! I like to think of Midway, and the Army and Marine fellas based on the island keeping going and going like Duracell Bunny one at a time against the Japanese fleet, then the Navy Devastator pilots, with no fighter cover at all, who did almost NO damage they could *see* -- except pulling down the fleet's Zero cover to sea level before the Dauntless Party started: something the earlier striking aircrew did NOT wish to do haha. But that's how it worked out later. And then the non-kamikaze Japanese aircrew who flew essentially suicide missions against worsening odds as the Pacific war progressed. According to Saburo, all the Japanese pilots on Iwo fully expected to die there. I think most did. Not sure. Most interesting bombing raid to me was Soviet bombing of Newbie pilot Saburo's airfield in China sometime 1938 or -39, or so, by roundabout a dozen DB3. Saburo took off solo in his Ki-27 (edit...A5M, apologies to Saburo) during the ammo explosions and burning aircraft but could not catch the, at the time, high performance Soviet bombers flying away at 8km altitude. Airfield commander was executed. Edited October 24, 2009 by Lexx_Luthor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Biggus 0 Posted October 24, 2009 Is this about the greatest raid or the biggest balls? Ploesti was a complete failure in terms of resources being thrown away needlessly for all the reasons Dave listed. The 8th could only contribute positively to the destruction of Germany when they were able to keep their rate of attrition to a manageable number. I share Gepard's view. Moked and the start of Barbarossa. Both achieved their goals with high degrees of success. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Biggus 0 Posted October 24, 2009 Estimates were at 42 loss aircraft that night and the following intrelude. I'd say that pretty balsy. Sorry, which raid are you referring to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murphy'S 15 Posted October 24, 2009 Not greatest in how well it went, greatest is how big of balls you had to have to even do it. You are misunderstanding what I am trying to convey. Those missions were good but the pucker factory was not there in the extreme like it was at Polesti. (Which produced 5 Medals of Honor, 3 of which were posthumously) the raids on sweinfurt were scary too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) The Ploesti strikes were really heavy, but to call it the greatest mission? I doubt. The air defence of the fuel production centres in middle germany was much denser than the Ploesti flak. No, the greatest air strike ever was the air attack operation on the 21.June 1941 to start the Operation Barbarossa. With one swep to annihilate nearly the entire soviet air force on the ground, this is what i call great. The No.2 were the israeli Operation Moked which annihilated the egyptian, jordan and syrian Air Forces at nearly one day. Is this about the greatest raid or the biggest balls? Ploesti was a complete failure in terms of resources being thrown away needlessly for all the reasons Dave listed. The 8th could only contribute positively to the destruction of Germany when they were able to keep their rate of attrition to a manageable number. I share Gepard's view. Moked and the start of Barbarossa. Both achieved their goals with high degrees of success. If it is about the level of success achieved on the raid on strategic terms, i got one question: Using nukes is cheating? Because there is a couple of raids unmatched on that matter Edited October 25, 2009 by macelena Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gepard 11,323 Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) Using nukes is senseless. You can only civilists kill efficently with that kind of weapon. Military targets are much less vulnerable than an open city. The question is, what you call "greatest". Its a question of definition. If i say Moked is greatest or Barbarossa starts was greatest, then my point of view is focused on maximum success. Daves definition seems to be different. He sets bravery (big balls) over achieved success. No problem with it. Edited October 25, 2009 by Gepard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derk 265 Posted October 25, 2009 Vulcan Black Buck mission to the Falklands, at least the longest bombing raid in history and the one using the greatest number of tankers (grand total of 28) to get 21 1000 pounders on Stanley airfield...... Hou doe, Derk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted October 26, 2009 (edited) Although it doesn't really count as a single mission or even an air raid, the defense of Malta during WWII required a lot of balls, too! It was called "the unsinkable aircraft carrier" mostly because it had even fewer planes and resources available than most real aircraft carriers did! It took a long time before the Germans decided their efforts were best used elsewhere. I also agree to disagree on Op Moked and Barbarossa. While they were strategically very well done, tactically they were surprise attacks that were able to get most of their damage done before the enemy could rally an effective defense (unlike Ploesti in every way). Some lives were lost, but nowhere near as many, percentage wise, as was lost at Ploesti. Dave's focus was on the tactical aspects of the op (what the crews themselves faced) vs what the nation behind it actually achieved. Edited October 26, 2009 by JediMaster Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
