Air to Ground 'winders

[Rambler 1-1]

After buggering around with strike planes with no gun (the CF-104, to be specific), I find myself doing something that I believe is frowned upon.

 

Since my beloved Zipper only carries 2 bombs, I commonly find myself bracketing my target (One bomb short, one long). Normally, in a Phantom, Hun, Scooter or anything else, I'd either have my trusty "Just-In-Case-I-Miss" rocket pods, if not a cannon or two. Or a couple more bombs. However, I only ever carry fuel tanks and sidewinders on my CF-104 along with the bombs, and since there's no onboard gun, I vent my anger by... well... rolling in and firing 2 unguided 'winders at my target. I usually hit it with at least one. Sometimes, if a target of opportunity presents itself after my first pass (parked aircraft...), I will spike it with a 'winder too.

 

In one of the Rolling Thunder books, I remember the main character getting in some sh!t because he used two unguided Sparrows after running out of ammo on CAS. I was wondering if there are actually rules against using air to air missiles to strike ground targets in real life.

 

...regardless, I'm still gonna do it in the sim. It's just fun.

[EjectionSeat]

I remember reading(no idea where I read it or if its true) that f-102 pilots in SEA would fire IR falcons at trucks on the ho chi men trail. I'm sure they had better luck hitting trucks on the ground than they did hitting other aircraft with the falcon.

Edited December 20, 2009 by EjectionSeat

[Dreamstar]

If Memory serves there are articles in the Geneva Convention that prohibit the use of anti air weapons against ground targets and infantry... now weather that is just triple A against infantry or it includes Air to Air missiles against ground targets i dont know....

[+Wrench]

Every read "Warbirds" by Richard Herman?? There's a few scenes when the Iranian fleet is closing on Ras Assyana, the Phantoms are using BOTH their Sparrows and Sidewinders against the landing craft

 

If you can lock 'em up or get within parameters to launch, hell yes shoot 'em!!

 

wrench

kevin stein

[+Typhoid]

in the Geneva Convention?

 

I don't think so, but I don't recall anything specific on that.

 

Lots of AAA is dual use - including SAMs in some cases. (Sea Sparrow for example)

 

I suspect the brass was more upset that scarce A2A weapons had been expended with little to no probability of success - as in wasted.

 

There have been some efforts from time to time to look into adding A2G capabilities to A2A missiles.

 

Sidearm, in fact, was such a development.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-122_Sidearm

 

included in one of the weapons pack or as an extra add-on for the Thirdwire series.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Typhoid

[+Fubar512]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the AGM-45 Shrike essentially an AIM-7 Sparrow with an AR seeker and a modified warhead?

 

Also, while on the subject of novels, IIRC, in Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising", they used sidewinders against Soviet assualt hovercraft.

[Lt. James Cater]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the AGM-45 Shrike essentially an AIM-7 Sparrow with an AR seeker and a modified warhead?

 

Also, while on the subject of novels, IIRC, in Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising", they used sidewinders against Soviet assualt hovercraft.

 

That's correct, Fubar!

 

Hell, if you are carrying 9Bs you might as well use them for A2G as you probaly have a better chance of success than if you use them against enemy aircraft.

[+Fubar512]

If Memory serves there are articles in the Geneva Convention that prohibit the use of anti air weapons against ground targets and infantry...

 

Not at all, though your question brings to mind a line from one of my favorite movies...

 

"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write FU%K! On their airplanes, because it's obscene!"

[+331Killerbee]

Yep, The AGM-45 is a Sparrows Engine with a different Warhead and G&C on it. The Guys firing the Falcons at Campfires from the Ho Chi Mhinn Trail reported some secondaries with their F-102's.

 

AIM-9 and 7's could be used against "Soft" Ground Targets. The problem being the Continous Rod Warheads. Both have a Proximity Fuses in them, But the Continous Rod WarHeads were built specifically for Air to Air Targets. They wouldn't do much good against "Hardened" Targets. More often than not, You'd have to shoot them in BoreSight Mode. Way too much clutter on the Ground.

 

 

The last important thing is explaining to the Group Commander, When he calls You out on the Carpet, Why You feel the need to waste His 1/4 Million Dollar Air to Air Missiles on Ground Targets. I'm sure as He's chewing You out, He'll remind You that's what 2.75mm and 5.0mm HE Rockets are for.

 

 

In the case of the F-104, That's the delimiting Factor in using a Interceptor as a CAS Platform......

 

 

 

331KillerBee

[FalconC45]

In Randy Cummingham's book "FOX 2", He used a Sidewinder on an AAA truck after it blew his wingie away, if I remember correctly he said he had tone and launched it, the missile tracked and hit the truck. Next day the ground crew put a truck kill marker on his F-4

 

Falcon

[+331Killerbee]

Yep..... And LCDR Ted Swartz in a A-4C of VA-76 on 1 May 1967, Shot down a Mig-17 with a 5.0 Zuni Rocket. They put a Kill marking on his Nose too.......

[+EricJ]

If Memory serves there are articles in the Geneva Convention that prohibit the use of anti air weapons against ground targets and infantry... now weather that is just triple A against infantry or it includes Air to Air missiles against ground targets i dont know....

 

It's using AAA against infantry, proportionate force and all that.

 

And I'm quite sure the Eagles fired 20mm, not a winder at the Fucik in Red Storm Rising.

Edited December 21, 2009 by EricJ

[archstanton]

I thought somebody would have posted this by now: http://tiny.cc/mK41x

[AgapheM]

How about AGM-87 Focus?

 

It's model looks like similar with AIM-9 Sidewinder (in community weaponspack).

[+Gepard]

To use Flak or SAM against ground objects is not forbitten by the Convention of Geneva or the Landwarorder of Haag. Flak guns are very efficent against ground objects, you should not forget that in 1941 the majority of T-34 tanks were destroyed by 88mm Flak. Also today the 20 - 30mm Flak is very usefull against light armoured vehicles.

The use of Air to Air missiles against ground targets is not american way alone. Also the Warshaw pact pilots trained the ground object shooting with the R-3S (AA-2 Atoll) missile.

[Guest HoneyFox]

Will sidewinders lock on ground targets?

 

i know that sometimes it can lock on to planes parking on the airfields. but not to those anti-air units or other structures.

 

in groundobjects' data ini, there should be a param named heatsignature... it is for those IIR homing missiles. but i wonder if it also attracts sidewinders' seeker?

 

 

[+ST0RM]

By tuning the IR seeker to "see" in other IR Bands, the AIM-9 or another IR missile could be used to track a ground target. Obviously a truck does'nt put off the same energy a jet does, but those engineers are crafty people.

 

-S

[Darrin]

my dad was a crew chief stationed in thailand and has stories of armerment empty thuds dropping fuel tanks on targets. he said it works

[+Fubar512]

 

 

in groundobjects' data ini, there should be a param named heatsignature... it is for those IIR homing missiles. but i wonder if it also attracts sidewinders' seeker?

 

There was an entry for heatsignature in the groundobject.dll way before we had one in the aircraftobject.dll. TK probably intended the former to highlight targets if and when he decided to add FLIR capability to the avionics suites on later aircraft models.

[charlielima]

How about AGM-87 Focus?

 

It's model looks like similar with AIM-9 Sidewinder (in community weaponspack).

 

Works like a champ on soft skin vehicles. Unfortunatly It's nation is USN, 1969 to 1970, and is classed as either a CGR, EOGR,or EOGB. I'd mess with the data ini but I still wouldn't be able to use it on A1Es, SPADS,(A)P2Vs or B-26Ks without frequent nation changes to the weapon or AC ini. Bitchin weapon tho. Alot less stress then trying to line up on a truck column with CBUs, Nape, and the miniguns and grenade launchers at night and Uncle Hos young gentleman are up hunting for piston slappers. Any body know how to mess with a weapons data nation so we could use them for multiple US branches. Sidearms on a Black Pony? Hmmm........ The AGM-87 Focus on an armed recon flight? You bet!

CL

[turkeydriver]

LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa has told a story of when he and his flight spotted a target of oportunity in the form of a supply train on the way back to the carrier in their F-8s over Vietnam. On his run in, he forget to switch to guns and pickled a sidewinder by mistake at the locomotive-as he was lined up to ake it out, the sidewinder guided perfectly and disabled the locomotive(blown smokestack and all) just before it entered a tunnel. He was congratulated for his ingenuity back at the carrier where he humbly revealed his mistake that worked in his favor.

[arrow80]

Well, I have this from my friend who was a weapons engineer and he told me that they succsessfully used R3S missiles (in practice firings) against ground target, so obviously it can be done.