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Wikileak Apache video

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And thats the thing, clever editing, etc makes it looks bad. That's the media for you. I do not know if you noticed but people in this very thread are not sure if there were weapons or not. So imagine if you were there. Fog of war. These things are what we are faced with when we go to war. How many times do you think a Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airmen second guessed themselves and maybe gotten killed because of it. You can't always just sit there and go back and forth on "well maybe he's a bad guy" That's a good way to get yourself killed or someone killed. The video is disturbing though. Its reality and not some first person shooter.

 

 

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im no pro, im old, and i got bad eyes, but i SAW a zoom lense, not an rpg, and i saw no fire coming from that group of people.

 

 

 

Ah, but you're watching this video with the fore-knowledge that there was media involved in this. So you already know what you're looking for. The pilot and ground forces did not have this benefit, especially with circles outlining media personnel so that it's easy for you to recognize them. Now try to watch the video with the point of view that you have no knowledge that there was media there but that you're receive reports from ground forces that this group has opened fire on them with AK-47s and RPGs. Can you make a honest statement then that you can easily tell what's what? Do you think it would be in the benefit of those ground forces to take your time to really try to discriminate what's going on while they're are getting shot at, and possibly some getting wounded and/or killed?

 

Fact of the matter is, this video has been edited for an anti-American agenda, clear and simple. If it was just a video showing an AH-64 shooting up some guys, with the whole video and audio recording of what happened before without any of the lame pre and post video comments, I doubt that so many people would jump up and say that we're being "animals"... well there are a lot of morons out there who just like to piss people off, so I might be wrong on that.

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Those journalist just picked the wrong side to cover as far as I am concerned. Don't go back and analyze the video. Sit in a lawn chair in a box in 110 degree heat for three hours. Try to determine what is going on by listening to radio call signs and grids while constantantly moving over terrain that all looks the same. All the while supporting a ground element that has been in contact for hours. Then watch the tape once. Then tell me if a telephoto lens looks like an RPG or SA-14. I have had to make that same decision but in a tank not an Apache. It is not that easy, but these guys did it right. Throw stones somewhere else guys not here. Sure the vid is disturbing but if I whined about all the disturbing things I have seen all the time I would be in an asylum. Be thankful that you do not have to make the same decisions those guys did. Also, be thankful that there are guys and gals that will make those decisions for you.

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First off, I would like to thank everyone for actually discussing this in a calm and rational fashion. Secondly, Id like to thank Dave and Erik and the other owners/admins for allowing this thread to remain open. (so far) Open discussion is not only usefull, it is necessary in an open and free society such as ours. We just need to keep things civil and not allow our passion for our beliefs to override common sense.

With that being said, I would like to remind everyone,I DO NOT WHINE, I BITCH, and I do it loudly,(which can at times get me in trouble, and I own up to that 100%)

Also, you need not remind me that there are people in combat zones doing a job that is quite deadly, that Im not doing, my father died in viet nam while serving with the 1st air cav so I am quite aware of this. And this video being shot from a chopper kinda hits a little closer to home, ya know?

I can understand how a veteran or someone activly serving can immediatly take offense to any percieved "attack" on them or fellow servicemen, hell, its what you were trained to do. But we are the United States of America, we Must be better than the rest, we MUST be more professional than the other guys as leaders of the free world.

As my father used to say to me,"Perfect will be close enough, son."

Once again, I would like to offer my thanks to all members here activly serving and to those who are retired military, I am forever indebted to you.

In conclusion, Id like to say just one thing, and I know you already know this, but there are lives at stake, friendly, foe and non combatant, the taking of any of those can not be done lightly, these decisions are final.

Thank you for listening.

 

 

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Exactly-its not something to defend behind oft-twisted phrases but rather something that should not happen-ever. These incidents occur in my country too and it is an issue, only it is quelled. Very many folk duck behind the usual-'you haven't been there' or 'you don't know what you are talking about', sometimes out of apathy and indifference and sometimes even because its too close to the bone. Heck if I'm having a bad day at court that don't mean I can go beat up a judge because I think he's on the take! Training must be more brutal than actual combat-while unattainable it must be the standard sought to be achieved. Restraint in action and contrition in error are the mark of discipline. Timing also helps. If my training hasn't taught me to make decisions with caution and clarity in the most extreme of situations then the training so imparted is incomplete. That in my measured opinion is a sad fact that deserves some serious thought; I often question my own education.

And hold it...the media was shot at and killed...that is un-condonable; at least THEY aren't going to condone it in a hurry and those are the chaps one has to win over. Coz the folks back home are seeing what the media shows them.

Edited by Stick

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You are absolutely right. Taking a life in combat is no small matter. Its a serious deal. However, what's more haunting is taking no action at all, costing the lives of your fellow troops. That's my predicament when I was in Iraq. I couldn't tell what I was seeing was a mortar team or just a group of guys hanging out. Unfortunately, it was a mortar team and they tried to hit my position with a shell (thank God they missed). The thing is, it happened fast! By the time I realized what they were doing, it was too late. All I could do was say holy s***! I learned from that experience and that in a combat zone if it looks funny, kill it! If you end up being wrong, you can justify it later on 'cause this is war. There's no room for BS. If that guy is crawling, he maybe trying to stay low to get cover and to get back in the fight. He needs to be neutralized. If you're asking how to survive such an encounter if you're not presenting any hostilities, keep your hands high above your head, palms open, and rest on your knees, head facing down. Then we really know you're not a threat.

Edited by serverandenforcer

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I do not know if you noticed but people in this very thread are not sure if there were weapons or not.

I'm quite sure I saw an RPG-7 being carried by one of the KIA enemy. When I say quite sure I mean, I wan't proof it wasn't becuase if that was not a RPG-7 then it was a really good toy replica and as far as I know people don't carry toy replicas of RPG-7 in a freakin' war.

 

I just don't get the part when that black van comes into the scene, although I'm the first to say things like "you either do war or you don't, once the war starts it's too late for civil actions" I don't see why was that van considered a threat or a legitimate target(meaning since we already have terms such as "legitimate targets" coming into the play).

 

Me personally if I was in that Apache, I would probably do the same, they had a friendly armour and infantry coming there and they did everything to make life easier for their buddies on the ground, that's what soldiers do...

Edited by Brain32

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It's pretty clear what Wikileaks wants everyone to believe.

If they want to be the Hot Shot whistle blowers that they preach,put it on the air without the editing and captions and let us make our own decision.

That Apache crew was in Close Air Support of US units that were only a few blocks away. Apparently the ground forces had been fired upon. That crew thought they saw Bad Guys. They called back to request permission to engage(how many times?)SEVERAL!

They told the Coordinating Facility what their position was.

They received permission to engage from higher authority.

The Rules of Engagement could not have been followed more closely.

If the coordinating facility had been aware of a news crew in the area,don't you think that the Apache crew would have been told about it?

It's a shame that this news crew got killed,but they could have made a 2 minute cell phone call to the support center and told them where they were going to be before they got there.

You comment about the laughter on the video.

This crew thought that they just shot up a bunch of Bad Guys before the Bad Guys shot up our people. They had about 30 seconds to see what was going on and react.(That's their job!!)

It's War,Sh&t Happens.

I don't blame DoD for not wanting to release this video.

Look what has been done to it.

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I just don't get the part when that black van comes into the scene, although I'm the first to say things like "you either do war or you don't, once the war starts it's too late for civil actions" I don't see why was that van considered a threat or a legitimate target(meaning since we already have terms such as "legitimate targets" coming into the play).

 

It can be chalked up to coincedences, and the fact that the pilot used "Bongo" when talking to the ground elements is a sure sign he had a good idea of what it does, based on past history. Because Iraqi casevac is pretty damn efficient, and so it was only natural to assume.

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If you can understand what is being said on the radio ( I know you know Eric ) you can clearly see what is going on. A " Bongo Truck " is a KIA Bongo. It is at times used as slang for an Iraqi vehicle. Do not read the captions. They are intentionally screwed up. Listen to what they say. You have several ground elements. Bushmaster 2-6, Bushmaster 6, Bushmaster 7, etc. Crazyhorse 1-8 is the Apache. Bushmaster 7 (B Co. 1SG ) clears the Apache to shoot the van. By clearing he means no freindlies in kill zone. If the van had a Red Crescent on it and it got lit up then it would be illegal. But since these guys don't play fair how are we supposed to know? This is the kind of stuff that happens when you disband your army tell them to blend in with civilians and fight like cowards. The whole argument about the crawling guy is bogus too. You shoot until the target is destroyed. Dude crawling is not dude destroyed. I don't care what most of you guys say this was as legit as it gets. BTW we have journalist getting blown away by the bad guys all the time. Remember Kim Dozier, and that dude from ABC, to name a few. So If I was a "journalist" I would want to cover the guys that have Apaches and Bradleys, instead of the guys with Adidas track suits, suicide vests, and AK's. The "journalists" are obviously standing next to armed men. One is talking on the phone. How do you think the bad guys communicate? They use cell phones. The bad guys also frequently video and photograph their dirty work. How do guys think you get to watch those cool IED videos on Liveleak? The "journalists" where obviously dirty or they wouldn't be with the bad guys. Ernie Pyle was killed by a Japanese sniper on Okinawa, right? So........ combat jouralism is dangerous! Get over it!

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If the coordinating facility had been aware of a news crew in the area,don't you think that the Apache crew would have been told about it?

 

I think this is the central point of this topic. If the news crew didnt want to get killed then they should have made the US forces aware that they were operating in the area before they went there.

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HUA CrazyhorseB34!

 

It's Hooah :smile: But well said CrazyhorseB34 :good:

Edited by EricJ

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It's Hooah :smile: But well said CrazyhorseB34 :good:

 

Security Forces calls it HUA as an acronym for Heard, Understood, and Acknowledge :grin:

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There is no way i would call it a murder. But there is something wich disturbs me about this and other videos is how do they take it. I mean, i don´t think it´s wrong because of the mess a 30mm causes on a lot of guys altogether, because that´s the job of a cannon and never was meant to be nice. I don´t think it is wrong killing a badly wounded target if you think it is still a threat, i would have ordered that exactly. The thing disturbing about this video and others is the attitude of the crew.

 

I don´t think we can ask people in middle of combat, once that you think a bit about what combat means, too much beyond what a scared, tired, angry and overstressed man would do, think or feel, but this comms, shows the side of war wich prooves how dark, grim, cruel could you come to be. Or those of the A-10 wich strafed a british Scimitar during the beginning of OIF in wich the first thing he says after knowing that he killed another servicemen was "s**t, i´m goin to jail", or the Apache pilot who, while Hellfiring two Bradley FVs in ODS "I hope those weren´t ours, man".

 

However, this is something wich is beyond what frivolous activists, wich don´t mean their opinion but wear it as fashioned, or myself, should judge.

Edited by macelena

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Well that's why the Apache crew (and others) have that attitude, the constant stress does mess with your mind. And no I'm not going to feel (never did) sorry for some "poor" Taliban or Iraqi who's trying to kill me. The basic feeling is that either it's him or me, and sorry, I don't deploy to die for my country, it's to make sure they die for theirs.

 

Don't get me wrong macelena, you pretty much hit it on the head why they act like that in your second paragraph. Stretch that out for a year and you'll get what you see.

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There is no way i would call it a murder. But there is something wich disturbs me about this and other videos is how do they take it. I mean, i don´t think it´s wrong because of the mess a 30mm causes on a lot of guys altogether, because that´s the job of a cannon and never was meant to be nice. I don´t think it is wrong killing a badly wounded target if you think it is still a threat, i would have ordered that exactly. The thing disturbing about this video and others is the attitude of the crew.

 

I don´t think we can ask people in middle of combat, once that you think a bit about what combat means, too much beyond what a scared, tired, angry and overstressed man would do, think or feel, but this comms, shows the side of war wich prooves how dark, grim, cruel could you come to be. Or those of the A-10 wich strafed a british Scimitar during the beginning of OIF in wich the first thing he says after knowing that he killed another servicemen was "s**t, i´m goin to jail", or the Apache pilot who, while Hellfiring two Bradley FVs in ODS "I hope those weren´t ours, man".

 

However, this is something wich is beyond what frivolous activists, wich don´t mean their opinion but wear it as fashioned, or myself, should judge.

 

I think the "attitudes" can be chocked up to stress.Everyone deals with it differently but troops in combat have over the centuries displayed a sence of dark humor the only those in combat truly will understand.I've seen people laugh and joke at parents funerals and laugh at trafic fatalities,it's not calusness usualy but a defence to the horrors or trauma one is a witness too.

Edited by whiteknight06604

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Guys, listen to some of the Phantom vs. MiG engagement audio tapes from Vietnam. You will here the same language and attitude. I guess it is a sort of detatchment. Crews be it tank, Bradley, Apache, or what ever spend countless hour training to do just what you see in the video. I have spent many a night as the Company Master Gunner with a crew in the gunnery simulator until the wee hours of the night training to get it right. Then no matter if it is 0300 when we get done still got to do PT with my PLT at 0600. Countless hours at gunnery ranges in Germany, Georgia, England, Egypt, Kansas, California, Hungary, Bosnia, Kuwait shooting live rounds day and night rain or shine just to be able to get it right when it has to be done for real. If people do not like what warriors say to each other while they are prosecuting war then don't be curious enough to listen. That cross talk between the pilot and gunner was no different than that of a tank crew in combat. The nature of their communication led me to believe that they were a tight, well trained crew. Listen how they back each other up during the external coms repeating commands and responses and asking each other questions. Funny how if it has wings it is glamorous and sexy. If it has rotors or tracks or has ARMY painted on it it is ugly and murderous. Oh well, I retired in AUG 09 so now I got to worry about my Algebra test in college next week!grin.gif The GI Bill works even if it is 20 years old.

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I'm many things, one of which is a photographer. At 4:19 you can clearly see a head and an SLR camera with attached 300mm f2.8 lens. I maybe pushing it but i'd say an Canon 300mm f2.8 L with attached black lens hood.

Edited by Hokum

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I'm many things, one of which is a photographer. At 4:19 you can clearly see a head and an SLR camera with attached 300mm f2.8 lens. I maybe pushing it but i'd say an Canon 300mm f2.8 L with attached black lens hood.

 

Once again the fog of war prevails. I still dont see a camera in that picture. I see a dude peeking around a corner with a something in his hands. You cant sit there and over think that because then it gives the guy time to shoot and kill you. That is how you stay alive.

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Stick::

And even I couldn't watch the whole video.

Watch it all. The soldier running carrying the child from the van shows the contradictions seen in war. At least when we mess up, we try to patch things up best we can. What you see in the video are the best fighting people in the world.

 

We only see a video on our gaming computers. I recall I think a CNN team in Iraq got shot when they raised a camera -- It looked like a rocket launcher. Something like that.

 

 

Good info keep it coming. This "war" is confusing, this video shows its not "clean" like say retaking the Aleutians from the Japs, and this war doesn't seem to go on forever. It is going on forever, while everything back home falls apart except bailed out giant wall street banks and booming weapons manufacturing -- the Munitions Bubble hehe.

 

I don't fault Wikileak so much as Pentagon for not releacing this long ago. What they try to tell us? "If you have nothing to hide...: -- well that works both ways. Be first to the media and admit mistakes. If you don't, you run the risk of somebody else doing it for you.

 

Serverforcer: What would the Soviet Union think of Youtube? USSR would have hated it, unless they totally controlled it. So by definition an uncontrolled Youtube is good for freedom, sovereignty, and liberty.

:good:

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We only see a video on our gaming computers. I recall I think a CNN team in Iraq got shot when they raised a camera -- It looked like a rocket launcher. Something like that.

 

I remember when I was in Jalalabad on the way out and (later on I found out) it was a Captain pointing four PVC pipes (like that old Vietnam era M220 rocket launcher, if I remember the designation correct) at a helicopter that was flying by. I was so livid that if there wasn't a 1SG standing there, I would have gotten into some serious trouble for giving him a beat down. Just stupid s**t like that could get him and those around us killed.

Edited by EricJ

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