did something change after the last patch?

[+Monty CZ 209]

Hello all, after several years of flying and modding good number of the aircraft

I have strong feeling that last patch changed something I dont like.

 

Could somebody confirm or dispute this:

I know that game uses whole AI flight to fight agaínst you. So any plane you try

to attack, flies in a path that brings you in front of another plane, which will shoot

at you. This was real enough for me.

 

But after the last patch it looks like AI have more advantages in the same plane than you.

Ok I knew that AI flies with normal settings, when you are flying on hard, but when max

speed is different for more than 30% on the same plane it is more I can stand anymore.

 

Another feeling I have when flying different plane - I am at 6 no more than 400m away from the enemy,

and enemy starts to fly straight speed cca 300km/h(ok I know that another enemy plane will be on my back in

no more than 10s) then I start to loose speed from my 450km/h so I cant get close to my target

(FPS is slowing down too) If I dont break away from my target in no more than 2secs I will be

sitting duck and shooted down.

 

Mig-21 flying at Mach 1,2 can decelerate so quick!!! when I was trying to turn into him because I was slow (450km/h)

and hoping that it will overshoot me (he was no more than 1km from me in that time). It managed to slow down

so it was 200m at my six after my short S turn (flying the exact speed as me). I cannot slow down in the same Mig.21

so quickly.

 

I was trying all that with original planes, my mods and all combinations of the planes. Am I paranoic or is the AI

"advantaged" the ways I described? I respected this series because game physic was good enough and AI wasn so dumb

but this level of the cheating I cand stand. It is the same why I dont fly Il-2

Can I change something to reduce differences of FM of player plane and AI in the same plane?

All this is written with respect of TKs work but I simply wanted the world without cheating :-)

Monty CZ

[MigBuster 2,884]

Will let you know if I get around to playing it. I guess proving how much of an advantage the AI has is the difficult thing.

 

what you have descibed above makes it sound no different to the previous patches tbh which I was rather liking.

[+Spectre_USA 7]

I think wingmen AI has been dumbed down significantly.

 

The enemy AI has definitely improved, but wingman, no matter their supposed skill level, are just horrible anymore.

 

I am toward the end of a long, grueling NF4+ campaign in the Tomcat, and have 3 wingmen left, after mostly flying solo.

 

If I bring a few friends, they are bound to die. I had the #2 guy in my last mission do a cartwheel into the ground after

having him attempt to attack the last Su-17 on a sweep mission, who was hardly maneuvering, comparatively speaking.

 

There are a lot of missions anymore where a couple of helpful hands would be nice...

[Icarus999 70]

I have to wonder why TK would purposely sabotage his otherwise excellent games by creating a system in which our AI teammates are purposely dumbed down and the critical wing man position is for the most part... well ...worthless. Since the level of training of the entire squadron is the most important factor in combat would it not make a whole lot more sense to just include a couple of AI aircraft settings controls for those who feel they need more of a challenge? These games are built around flying Blue side Air... historically NATO pilots have been very well trained. If we are going to give red air magical powers when it comes to their performance, shouldn't we have blue side AI teammates with an IQ over 75?

 

I have heard a few people try to justify his logic on this subject, but when you get past the knee jerk reaction to defend the guy who created these great games it is very clear that the friendly AI is in need of some attention.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Icarus999

[+streakeagle 871]

What AI difficulty setting are you guys using? If you set it to hard, AI enemies are more likely to be smarter, while AI friendlies are more likely to be dumber. Use Normal to get the correct experience/skill per nationality settings. I guess it would be nice if TK had separate setttings for both enemy and friendly AI so that you could make both sides as smart or dumb as you like.

[jomni 6]

Yep. I stick with Normal to avoid giviging disadvantages to my wingmen.

The description in the 1st post is how I've seen the game behaving for quite some time already so I have no complaints.

Edited July 20, 2010 by jomni

[+Monty CZ 209]

Ok sorry I wasnt clear enough, the question is not if the AI is dumber or not

I was talking about pure physic and matematics.

I have 2 hypothetical planes from the same era. one plane was 10% faster second

is better in turns. How can I make good flight model for both of them and how they

will fight in game comparable to reality? Because I flying the faster one will

never catch the "slower" one because AI is 30% faster in game. Do you see my point?

[+Spectre_USA 7]

Sorry, yeah, I kind of diverted this a touch with my rantings.

 

It is difficult to get a happy medium for the DATA.INI when the same jet performs differently depending on who's driving.

 

Maybe TK will reveal the differences over at Thirdwire, but I wouldn't hold my breath...

[+Spillone104 553]

Well I could confirm that in the first serie the AI have so many differences between SP4 (2006) and oct.08 patch.

In the SP4 your wingmen have the same physic as your plane. For exhample if you are in formation and engage the afterburner they will do the same. But in oct.08 if you do the same thing, the wingmen are faster than you in any case. You with full AB and they just lit-up the afterburner for short time.

Not to mention the enemy AI.... Mig-21F-13 that climb and go faster than a Phantom or an F-104. MiG-17 that continue to turn and not stall at the ridiculus speed of 87Km/h. And somehow I've seen many entire flights go straight into the ground (no hills or mountains).

I know is difficult to set a good AI.... but why use these cheats?

[+Dave 2,322]

Always use normal. Its the perfect balance. On hard the AI is uber and pulls off some incredible moves while your wingman are dumber than cat s**t. Hard settings on this sim seem over the top. I only use hard for Fuel and Ammo usage now. The rest are set to normal.

[JediMaster 451]

Remember that TK never claimed to strive for realism, and therefore hard != realistic, it's just harder! As mentioned, instead of "easy", "normal", and "hard", you could rename the settings as "blue advantage", "equal", and "red advantage". I don't know why even when stupid your wingmen get more powerful planes than you do, perhaps TK had too many complaints about how easy the AI were to shoot down? I had no trouble with that, as long as they put up a fight, but I guess some people wanted more difficulty so all AI must now get easy FM perhaps. Anyone tried flying on easy FM to see if your plane flies like the AI?

[Gr.Viper 131]

Doesn't AI use normal FM?

 

Maybe TK tweaked something to compensate for the lack of BnZ tactic?

[MigBuster 2,884]

Maybe TK tweaked something to compensate for the lack of BnZ tactic?

 

 

I would say thats probably the main reason why the friendly AI is so bad at hard level

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

There's alot to whine about with TK's AI, but I always remember the terrain avoidance ability here. Recall FB Maddox AI could not handle terrain elevation, and it crippled the releace of PF on that game's New Guinea map, the AI was so bad about crashing into hills. But man/manette when I came to THE SF I was stunned at how well the TK's AI pops up and down avoiding terrain. Its so good you can make a low altitude strategic strike sim with this game on that feature alone.

[+Brain32 265]

Doesn't AI use normal FM?

 

Maybe TK tweaked something to compensate for the lack of BnZ tactic?

 

Yes they use normal FM which puts player in quite a disadvantage, however even like that they are still nowhere near a match for me. The only really irritating fights are MiG-17 vs F-4(even "E") as the lil' MiG's flying on Normal setting turn like go carts so I often run out of fuel before I get an angle on any of the little suckers.

 

Also for those guys flying more modern scenarios, I think their missiles are either more powerfull, or they are more resiliant to players missiles. Don't know, it's hard to say what goes on in modern BVR/VVR furball so I might just be a bad looser on this one lol

[Gr.Viper 131]

TK once mentioned that skilled AI (Ace or Vet, can't recall exaclty) gets bonuses to missile accuracy.

[Wrench 9,850]

and.... you can 'tailor' the individual AI in EACH aircraft's data ini ... look at some of the MiGs data ini, vs the US one. (the 15bis in particular)

 

Specificy calledout Dogfight AIs

 

 

[DogfightNovice]

MaxCannonRange=2250

OptimalCannonRange=400

MinCannonRange=300

 

[DogfightGreen]

MaxCannonRange=2000

OptimalCannonRange=350

MinCannonRange=250

 

[DogfightRegular]

MaxCannonRange=1800

OptimalCannonRange=300

MinCannonRange=200

 

[DogfightVeteran]

MaxCannonRange=1600

OptimalCannonRange=250

MinCannonRange=150

 

[DogfightAce]

MaxCannonRange=1400

OptimalCannonRange=200

MinCannonRange=100

 

 

they can be added to anything ... add it to some gun-armed Phantoms or Cruds, experiment,and let us know

 

wrench

kevin stein

[Derk 265]

An interesting little excercise: when taking off in full AB the wingman and the rest of the flight (same plane, same loading) are always 10 to 20kts faster in the takeoff run at the end of the tyre marks at the runway........... Always wondered why:blink:.

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

[JediMaster 451]

Here's a question--if the AI get the same FM as the player at normal, do they also have the same dynamic conditions affecting it? In other words, your speed is affected by the amount of fuel you have and the weight and drag of your ordnance...does a slick plane with 25% fuel fly the same for the AI as a fully-laden one on take off? If the game engine discounts those variables' effects on the AI's FM, that could account for a lot of the difference.

[FalconC45 162]

Here's a question--if the AI get the same FM as the player at normal, do they also have the same dynamic conditions affecting it? In other words, your speed is affected by the amount of fuel you have and the weight and drag of your ordnance...does a slick plane with 25% fuel fly the same for the AI as a fully-laden one on take off? If the game engine discounts those variables' effects on the AI's FM, that could account for a lot of the difference.

 

I think it dioes, unless the player uses the ALT-N command. I always wondered if you use that, does it affect your fuel?

 

Falcon

[HarryM 0]

2 out of the last 3 missions ended with me dieing in head-on PK, seems a little more lethal than before.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Alt-N doesn't drain any fuel for covering warp distance unlike time compression mode.

[FalconC45 162]

Alt-N doesn't drain any fuel for covering warp distance unlike time compression mode.

 

Thank you for the confirmation.

 

Falcon

[MoonGoose 4]

uhm i play with all realism HARD (apart from fuel consumption, because AI never run out of fuel) and enemy skill level HARD.

 

after 3 years of Thirdwire sims, playing over and over with a PS2 gamepad finely axis tuned, the game is rather easy.

 

- the AI keep shooting sparrows from full range (and then is easy to dive to 100 feets and break the lock).

- the AI got a nice accuracy with guns head-on.

- the AI keeps firing IRMs not in a good firing AoA.

- the AI strafing strategies and evading maneuvers are all the same two three types everytime (they start going climb/dive, or breakturns, and high climb escaping runs)

 

- wingmans are generally underskilled (unless you pick some 90-100-130 skilled in roster)

- wingmans have a good kill ratio with medium range SAHMs or AHMs but they miss lot of IRMs

 

my typical debrief in a mid '90 decade escort mission flying MF MiG-29 fulcrum-C (with R-77 and R-73) often fighting F-15D and F-16C is 6-9 kills for me (50% missile PK so 2-3 kills and 3-4 gun kills)

 

when outnumbered i usually run HOT while ordering my flight to break and engage air, then i draw fire from dumb AI shooting some R-77 here and there (that keeps em painting me and firing) and after evading some missiles (with low level fly trick) i try to flank em or go among em while my wingmans are free to lock.

 

hunting with f-15 is easier too... but i really get kicked good when i try to ride those flying trucks you call F-4E

 

well anyway AI gun skill is really good (wingmens gun skill sucks tho)

[+Monty CZ 209]

Ok BVR fights are easy but I am interested in gun fights in early planes,

Just tried one mission, me in Mig-15 with one wingman against 4 vampires.

I tried to fly straight enough all the time that there wont be vortexes active

but my planes were slowing even in dive and vampires could dance all over me

Tied to fly down (worse for me) tried to fly up (same thing) each small turn

slowed me down, even light touch (really, movement was 1-2mm) to my joystick

caused that stall sound. It ended when one sniper shot me down from 1,3km.

I dont want to fly 50m above the terain and wait when they fall, or order my

wingman to fly straight as a bait and I dont want to turn down hard settings.

I want fight like I supposed in each specific plane. Do I want that much?

Or might be something I have changed in my instalation?

WOI+Exp1+War for Israel 1948 mod

Monty CZ