65 years ago

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

On that Day of Fire, August 6, 1945, the city of Hiroshima was erased from Earth by the most terrifying amount of destructing power ever gathered by Man to that day. The American people was glad to feel that this terrible war was now close to her end, as the first part of 1945 had been very expensive in lives lost, and as this war was expected to become more terrible during the final phases of the invasion of Japan. But many people also felt that this World as they had known it had changed once and for all, and that nothing would ever be the same as before for the Human Kind.

 

Much have been said about the Bomb, pro and contra. IMHO, besides the lives of many GIs, it has probably saved countless Japanese civilian lives, as in that Summer 1945, the Japanese Islands had crossed for long the edge of starvation. If the War had continued, and it would have continued, the human toll of the Winter 1945-46 could have been horrific. The Bomb gave to the Japanese Govt the pretext he had searched for long to end that hopeless war without abdicating honor.

 

On the other hand, the Bomb dropped on Nagasaki only 3 days later, without time enough for negotiations, can hardly be justified, safe for the fact that since August 8, the Soviets had begun to rush on Manchuria, and a quick end to the War was now necessary to the West. Alas, it wasn't quick enough, and here are for instance the germs of the Korean War (indeed, it was a really imortant week for the History of the World). It is sad also to think that a pearl like Kyoto had been placed on the first list of potential targets. Erasing her, and the Yanks would have been seen once and for all as barbarians beyond any redemption by the Japanese people.

 

The same day, the accidental death of Richard Bong, top-scoring American ace ever, went totally unseen when he crashed flying a P-80.

[Von Paulus 8]

This sounds like cold equations, but I've wonder what would happen if the Americans didn't drop the bomb at all.

"Thanks" to Hiroshima and Nagasaki we all knew what nuclear armament meant. All society became aware of it's dangerous use.

IMO, that was one of the reasons why MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) and all the deterrence strategies worked during the Cold War.

This is pure speculation, but the drop of the bomb may not only helped shortening the war, but helped also avoiding a greater catastrophe.

[JediMaster 451]

I recall a quote along the lines of "no one will cower from an assault by a superweapon until the first time you use it."

 

Japan wouldn't have believed our threats of what the bomb could do, nor would the USSR. I suppose it could've been dropped in a less populated area, such as off the coast, but I don't know enough about their leaders' psyches at the time to know what line needed to be crossed to convince them.

 

The 2nd bomb was important for several reasons. They all boil down to a single one, however, and that's that the US had more than 1 bomb. If 1 place had been bombed, you could conceivably think "well, that's the only one they had". By dropping a 2nd one mere days later it said "we have a bunch of these and we'll use them", which is why Japan sued for peace so quickly...they didn't want a 3rd dropped. It also sent a message to the USSR that we had an arsenal of these bombs and could and would use them.

[Derk 265]

...., but I've wonder what would happen if the Americans didn't drop the bomb at all.

This is pure speculation, but the drop of the bomb may not only helped shortening the war, but helped also avoiding a greater catastrophe.

 

Millions of lives were saved (no invasion of the Japanese mainland) and many more millions of people would not be alive today, including myself.

But for the bombs the Japanes would have killed all the European civilians they kept in Indonesia and Malaya/Singapore in case of an invasion.

Preparations for that were being made. Apart from that, the prisoners would not have survived for much longer because of starvation and illnesses.

My mother, 2 brothers and my sister in Java and my father in Thailand would have been DEAD , ergo I would not have existed.......

 

I pity a lot of innocents that were killed in Nagasaki and Hiroshima but countless more innocent lives were saved.

I shall not go into what I think about certain fractions in Japan nowadays, but if I can I still do not buy Japanes products.

 

And I completely agree with von Paulus that the world was forced into living together instaed of against each other, whit a lot of benefits for all of us.

Thank you America

 

 

Derk

Edited August 6, 2010 by Derk

[+hgbn 91]

It's a fact that many more people were killed in just one of the fire bombings of Tokyo. Than by the nuke's of Hiroshima and Nagasaki together. And at the time I doubt that people actually knew about the long term effects of those weapons.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

If they hadn't been used, Japan would have fought to the last man!

 

If you can't stand the heat..get outta the Kitchen.

 

Germany can thank her lucky stars she lost the war when she did

[+Gepard 11,360]

If they hadn't been used, Japan would have fought to the last man!

 

Sorry, thats wrong. The japanese will to fight was broken. The american island hoping was successfull. The japanese fleet was destroyed, their aif force was down. Their only active position was the Kwantung Army with 1 million soldiers. They attempted to launch negotiations for surrender via USSR but this attempt failed. When the Red Army annihilated the Kwantung Army in north east China (Mandshuria) in a fast show of force the last japanese military accepted their situation.

The dropping of the bomb was not neccessary to finish the war. It was after Dresden, the second action of the Cold War. It was a message to Stalin and a senseless too.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Gepard

[Von Paulus 8]

Sorry, thats wrong. The japanese will to fight was broken. The american island hoping was successfull. The japanese fleet was destroyed, their aif force was down. Their only active position was the Kwantung Army with 1 million soldiers. They attempted to launch negotiations for surrender via USSR but this attempt failed. When the Red Army annihilated the japanese forces in north east China (Mandshuria) in a fast show of force the last japanese military accepted their situation.

The dropping of the bomb was not neccessary to finish the war. It was after Dresden, the second action of the Cold War. It was a message to Stalin and a senseless too.

Even though, I'm sure that the grounds for negotiation were different after and before the drop.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Von Paulus

[Derk 265]

Sorry, thats wrong. The japanese will to fight was broken. The american island hoping was successfull. The japanese fleet was destroyed, their aif force was down. Their only active position was the Kwantung Army with 1 million soldiers. They attempted to launch negotiations for surrender via USSR but this attempt failed. When the Red Army annihilated the Kwantung Army in north east China (Mandshuria) in a fast show of force the last japanese military accepted their situation.

The dropping of the bomb was not neccessary to finish the war. It was after Dresden, the second action of the Cold War. It was a message to Stalin and a senseless too.

 

Sorry Michael, the simple fact is that in case of an invasion of the Japanese mainland prisoners would be killed does not have to do with the will to go on fighting. A relatively small number of fanatics would have been enough. Same happened in Germany and in occupied Holland, where there was fighting and there were killings and executions almost up to the day of surrender. And in case of the prisoner camps, the Japs made the prisoners dig ditches around the camps with machine gun emplacements at the corners. Would have been very easy to kill the people and bury them quickly .......

And then there is the partly religion driven will to die for the emperor that has to be taken into account, as well as in my opinion the fact that the defence of the homeland is different from what was going on in China....

I still do not regret - very selfishly -that the nuclear bombs were used

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

 

PS: I agree with you that Dresden was a shamefull blunder and absolutely senseless in the greater picture.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Sorry, thats wrong. The japanese will to fight was broken. The american island hoping was successfull. The japanese fleet was destroyed, their aif force was down. Their only active position was the Kwantung Army with 1 million soldiers. They attempted to launch negotiations for surrender via USSR but this attempt failed. When the Red Army annihilated the Kwantung Army in north east China (Mandshuria) in a fast show of force the last japanese military accepted their situation.

The dropping of the bomb was not neccessary to finish the war. It was after Dresden, the second action of the Cold War. It was a message to Stalin and a senseless too.

 

Sorry, but that's quite wrong, and is distorted rubbish. The Japanese made preparations to fight down to the last civilian. And they recalled almost 2 MILLION troops back from Manchuria, to help repel the expected invasion. At that time, they also held a huge number of slave laborers (possibly as many as 300,000!), which were to be executed in advance of any invasion. The dropping of the A-bombs stopped this barbaric act from occurring.

 

My neighbor's father was with the occupation force in Japan during late '45 and '46, and he told us stories of the vast weapons caches that were found and destroyed (including a dry dock filled with dozens of suicide subs), along with printed materials detailing how civilians were expected to resist the invasion, and how to fashion crude gas-masks to protect them from the toxic gases that the Japanese military intended to use against the invaders. And this last bit was verified by Japanese citizens that were interviewed at the time.

[FalconC45 162]

Sorry, but that's quite wrong, and is distorted rubbish. The Japanese made preparations to fight down to the last civilian. And they recalled almost 2 MILLION troops back from Manchuria, to help repel the expected invasion. At that time, they also held a huge number of slave laborers (possibly as many as 300,000!), which were to be executed in advance of any invasion. The dropping of the A-bombs stopped this barbaric act from occurring.

 

My neighbor's father was with the occupation force in Japan during late '45 and '46, and he told us stories of the vast weapons caches that were found and destroyed (including a dry dock filled with dozens of suicide subs), along with printed materials detailing how civilians were expected to resist the invasion, and how to fashion crude gas-masks to protect them from the toxic gases that the Japanese military intended to use against the invaders. And this last bit was verified by Japanese citizens that were interviewed at the time.

 

 

Add the fact that Japanese children will used as pike soldiers using bamboo spears. I hate to think thousands of our marines will have Vietnam like flashbacks if they were forced to engage the children with deadly force (yes that'll be debatable but hope you guys see my point.). And I have seen footage of regular Japanese civilians jump off cliffs because they truly believe that US troops will *eat* them and you all seen the battles on Iowa Jima, the Japanese soldiers fought hard and fought until they were overwhelmed. Sure few of Japanese soldiers surrendered but 90%+ of them fought fanatically.

 

I calculated that if we were go forth of X Day operations, 2 MIL of troops each side will die in opening days. IMHO the A BOMB droppings saved lives on both sides.

 

Falcon

Edited August 6, 2010 by FalconC45

[ironroad 218]

Sorry, thats wrong. The japanese will to fight was broken. The american island hoping was successfull. The japanese fleet was destroyed, their aif force was down. Their only active position was the Kwantung Army with 1 million soldiers. They attempted to launch negotiations for surrender via USSR but this attempt failed. When the Red Army annihilated the Kwantung Army in north east China (Mandshuria) in a fast show of force the last japanese military accepted their situation.

The dropping of the bomb was not neccessary to finish the war. It was after Dresden, the second action of the Cold War. It was a message to Stalin and a senseless too.

 

 

Sir I am going to have to disagree with you there.

 

I hope to remind that the the Japanese came a hairs close to NOT surrendering in light of the two atom bombs dropped.

 

There was an attempted coupt de tat (following the tradition of coups that initially lead to Japan pursuing a policy of world domination and extermination) on the Emperor, his council, and his loyal generals AFTER the second A-Bomb was dropped.

 

The elements that dominated the Japanese Military/Government was ready and willing to fight down to the last man, woman, or child (whomever was left.)

Their goals were simple: Take as many people as they could (both military and civilian) and force the Allies to negotiate a peace treaty, and or DIE in glorious battle.

[+Dave 2,322]

Have to agree with ironroad, Fubar and a fee others. Their will was hardly broken. Read the battles of Iwo Jima, and Okinawa, they fought to almost the last man. Kamakazis were taking it's toll on the fleets. The Japanese air forces still had hundreds and hundreds of planes ready to be launched against a mainland invasion. Only the coup that ironroad mentioned made the surrender possible. People can say all they want about whether we were justified or not. We did the right thing by nuking them. They started it and we finished it. Pure and simple. Tojo and Hitler both started all this. You didn't see Britain just "annexing" lands or the US invading China and systematically killing its people. I would rather save 2 million of my fellow countryman at the expense of 2 million of an enemy nation.

[+whiteknight06604 935]

"I would rather save 2 million of my fellow countryman at the expense of 2 million of an enemy nation."

 

I would go further and save 100 of our men for the loss of 2 million enemy.Sorry but the idea of war is not to save all lives it's to save your own while inflicting enough on the enemy to force a surrender or gain your objectives.If it's in your best interest to cut enemy losses you do it otherwise you minimize your casulties and win.

[+Gepard 11,360]

Well, well, i see, the old cold war style propaganda is still alive in many heads. Read the lines below. They are taken from wikipedia and they are in this case researched very well by the wiki author

 

"On July 30, Ambassador Satō wrote that Stalin was probably talking to Roosevelt and Churchill about his dealings with Japan, and he wrote: "There is no alternative but immediate unconditional surrender if we are to prevent Russia's participation in the war." On August 2, Tōgō wrote to Satō: "it should not be difficult for you to realize that ... our time to proceed with arrangements of ending the war before the enemy lands on the Japanese mainland is limited, on the other hand it is difficult to decide on concrete peace conditions here at home all at once."

....

and later

.....

At 04:00 on August 9 word reached Tokyo that the Soviet Union had broken the Neutrality Pact, declared war on Japan and launched an invasion of Manchuria.

These "twin shocks"—the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and the Soviet entry—had immediate profound effects on Prime Minister Suzuki and Foreign Minister Tōgō Shigenori, who concurred that the government must end the war at once. However, the senior leadership of the Japanese Army took the news in stride, grossly underestimating the scale of the attack. They did start preparations to impose martial law on the nation, with the support of Minister of War Anami, to stop anyone attempting to make peace. Hirohito told Kido to "quickly control the situation" because "the Soviet Union has declared war and today began hostilities against us."

 

 

 

With other words, the nukes had not had the effect on the japanese leadership as you stated. Only in combination with the soviet war entry the japanese were willing to surrender. The war entry of the USSR alone would have had the same impact on the fighting will of the japanese leadership. Maybe that some hardliners would have had the will to fight, but deciding was the japanese emperor and his will to resist.

[+Dave 2,322]

Big deal, like wikipedia is a reliable source, also that is one authors opinion, against many who had the same conclusion as we have been stating. It's a well known fact they had no intention of surrending after the first bomb was dropped. Watch the history channel, or read Time/Life's WWII series. Has nothing to with Cold war propaganda, that is an ignorant statement if I ever saw one.

[Slartibartfast 153]

Remember as well that the Nuke was a weapon... and as it was total war at the time any weapon that could be used was used. If the Japanese had a nuke they would have used it no question. Also the Japanese where still in for the fight. I have studied enough military history to realise this the Japanese were not going to surrender quietly until after the nukes had been dropped. As has been said the Japanese still had a large standing army with which to repel an invasion. Dropping the first Nuke was simple expediant of using the weapon they had the second was to state we can do this again and again and again. Also it was a warning to Stalin.

 

And as William T Sherman said (I may be wrong) "War is Hell"...

 

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone and some of what I have read on there has made me laugh in its inaccuracy...

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

Remember as well that the Nuke was a weapon... and as it was total war at the time any weapon that could be used was used. If the Japanese had a nuke they would have used it no question. Also the Japanese where still in for the fight. I have studied enough military history to realise this the Japanese were not going to surrender quietly until after the nukes had been dropped. As has been said the Japanese still had a large standing army with which to repel an invasion. Dropping the first Nuke was simple expediant of using the weapon they had the second was to state we can do this again and again and again. Also it was a warning to Stalin.

 

And as William T Sherman said (I may be wrong) "War is Hell"...

 

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone and some of what I have read on there has made me laugh in its inaccuracy...

 

Of course, the Japs would have certainly used any available nuke warhead, probably against the US Fleet as no other interesting objective was within range (safe for bringing a warhead by suicide oceanic submarine to the American/ Australian coasts). But at that time, the Japs had the enemy at their gates and the Hell in the heart of their cities; they certainly would have had some reasons to use such weapons, in order of military reaction or political retaliation.

 

Also keep in mind that the Empire of Rising Sun and the Allies hadn't the same long-term goals of war. The Japaneses wanted to develop an extensive, fortified, self-sufficient Empire with a deep maritime glacis. What the White Empires would have resented them for didn't bother them very much. On the other hand, The Allied goal of war was to establish a stable constitutional democracy and resume commercial relations (with a weakened Japan, at best). Conducting the war in an especially unhuman way, before giving lessons of humanity, would have been a way of seriously rotting these future relations.

 

The way William T. Sherman and his foragers conducted the war in Georgia (short-term efficiency againsy long-term resentment) is just an excellent example of how rotting for long the future reviving relations between victor and vanquished...

[The_Nephilim 0]

I recall a quote along the lines of "no one will cower from an assault by a superweapon until the first time you use it."

 

Japan wouldn't have believed our threats of what the bomb could do, nor would the USSR. I suppose it could've been dropped in a less populated area, such as off the coast, but I don't know enough about their leaders' psyches at the time to know what line needed to be crossed to convince them.

 

The 2nd bomb was important for several reasons. They all boil down to a single one, however, and that's that the US had more than 1 bomb. If 1 place had been bombed, you could conceivably think "well, that's the only one they had". By dropping a 2nd one mere days later it said "we have a bunch of these and we'll use them", which is why Japan sued for peace so quickly...they didn't want a 3rd dropped. It also sent a message to the USSR that we had an arsenal of these bombs and could and would use them.

 

 

Well we had Only two Bombs Fat man and little boy.. WE probally could of made more in time but at that time we had only enough Uranium, Plutonium to make 2. Well actually we did have 3 but the First one Tested we nuked Ourselves..Known Now as Ground Zero!! here is a Pic or twoof the VERY First A-Bomb:

 

 

 

 

By the_nephilim at 2010-08-09

 

By the_nephilim at 2010-08-09

 

 

By the_nephilim at 2010-08-09

[+whiteknight06604 935]

I do not understand the reasoning behind making nuclear weapons a moral question.there is no evil weapon only evil uses.What is the difference between droping thousands of conventional weapons on a city or one nuke? You can question the reasoning behind bombing "civilian" targets but it should not metter if it was a nuke or thousands of conventional weapons.I hate to say this but even if the only reason was to intimidate Stalin thats a good enough reason.The Soviet Union was one of the most evil intitutions man has made and anything that could have been tried to reign them in would be a good idea. you can't judge decisions made 65 years ago with our godlike hindsite,even if the japanese were ready to surender if we didn't have a way of knowing why take the chance? all side bombed the hell out of cities throuout the war to judge one of them at the end differently just because it was "a big scary nuke" dosn't make much sence to me.

[ezlead 42]

At the time,most Americans hated the Japanese and the Germans.

Harry Truman was told it could save a million American lives.

Easy answer,kill the enemy,save American lives. Nuke 'Em.

Harsh outcome,but reality for that time in history.

Just be glad that we had it first,not the Germans,Japanese or the Soviets. History would be a lot different otherwise.

[+daddyairplanes 10,311]

i recall this little fact i picked up somewheres over the years about the japanese will to resist. the casualties expected in an invasion of the home islands was expected to be so high that a million Purple Hearts were minted for the invasion alone. i also recall that we are still using purple hearts minted for that invasion. may not be what would have happened but it is what we expected

[+Gepard 11,360]

Okay, if you think Wiki is always rubish, then read following lines. They are from the US Department of Energy.

 

"Prior to the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, elements existed within the Japanese government that were trying to find a way to end the war. In June and July 1945, Japan attempted to enlist the help of the Soviet Union to serve as an intermediary in negotiations. No direct communication occurred with the United States about peace talks, but American leaders knew of these maneuvers because the United States for a long time had been intercepting and decoding many internal Japanese diplomatic communications. From these intercepts, the United States learned that some within the Japanese government advocated outright surrender. A few diplomats overseas cabled home to urge just that."

 

The nuke attacks were not neccessary for ending WW2. They were to show the soviets the big stick.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Gepard

[JediMaster 451]

You're drawing an inaccurate conclusion from an accurate fact. Assuming everything in that quote is true, what makes you think they had the ability to DO anything about it?

Case in point: in the US right now the Republicans were against the health care bill, against the auto bailouts, etc etc etc. They happened anyway.

"Some elements" within a gov't is not equal to "those in control or about to take control."

Remember also that Japan didn't want an unconditional surrender, which after years of war was what the Allies had determined was the only acceptable solution. The Japanese wanted an intermediary to negotiate? There was nothing to negotiate, they had to simply surrender which they didn't do until after the 2nd bomb.

 

So, while you may have no qualms over risking the lives of hundred of thousands of American soldiers (and be extension Japanese soldiers and civilians) 65 years ago because a wealth of data examined decades later seems to indicate, in your opinion, that they might have surrendered anyway, the Allied leaders had no such luxuries during the war.

 

I know the US didn't have another bomb ready, but Stalin had to know of the test in NM plus the 2 drops on Japan which meant the US had three working bombs. To gamble there wasn't a 4th or that some might fail after that track record was unwise. As for the moral question of the nuclear bomb, it really IMHO has only one, and that's that it will poison the land long after the war ends. Fire bombs, gas, conventional bombs, etc, have immediate but not long-lasting effects like radiation does.

[+Gepard 11,360]

This is the source:

http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/surrender.htm

 

I dont blame the pilots to drop the bomb on Hiroshima, nor i blame the pilots who dropped the bombs on Dresden, nor i blame the pilots who dropped their bombs on Gaza, nor the men with the rifle in the hand who were sent out to fight and kill.

But i blame the politicians and bureaucrats who believe the world is a big chess board and soldiers are only figures on this board, which can be sacrificed. And if something was going wrong they tell us lies and washing their hands in innocence.

 

If you are a soldier, and i think some of use served out their time with the finger on the trigger of a weapon, you have learned that their is a very small line between legal fight and murder. Civilists are to protect, this is a basic rule of all conventions of warefare between civiliced nations, from Haage to Geneva. If you are violating this rule you are a war criminal and you will be punished. If politicians give the order to violate the rule then they find always a way out.

Hiroshima was such an act, Dresden was such an act, Katyn was such an act, Guernica was such an act ...