SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[Caesar 305]

Well, in the 1v8, I wasn't using long range missiles in the F-14, just guns and rear-aspect heaters, so the Lightning's lack of RWR was no factor.  The Lightnings, however, DID have face-shooters, but early '70's missiles aren't very chaff resistant, which kept me alive to the merge.  From there, it was really a matter of sustaining a better turn rate.  I'll have to work on the speed in the Lightning to find its best sustained turn; I was trying to keep it closer to 400-450 (and I was using the F6), which gave a way too wide circle against the MiG-17s, at a rate that was waaaaaaaaay too low against the smaller bird.  The supercruise was one of the biggest saving graces I had.  Pushing the vertical, I could make swooping attacks, but I gotta figure out the rudder work.  Any time I was trying to roll and pull coming down on the Frescoes, I had the damnedest time lining up for a shot.  Like I said above, I've got to try to take on something not so MiG-17/UFO like to try to get used to it.  Not tough with the mission editor.

[Caesar 305]

Took up a Lightning F6 against a MiG-21F-13.  I've identified the areas of difficulty I have, and need to work out some TTP to counter them.  First, while the rudder works normally straight and level, once you put alpha on the jet, the rudder pretty much works in reverse.  If you put in left rudder, the aircraft yaws left for a micro-second, then begins a harsh right roll.  If it is at any significant deflection, the aircraft begins an almost uncontrollable roll in the opposite direction of deflection.  Zeroizing the rudder requires about 270-degrees to 360-degrees of roll to recover from.  Holding it longer, the aircraft skids while rolling.  So, more gentle and opposite of what I'm used to doing.  Secondly, the Lightning can sustain higher "g" than a MiG-21F-13, but has to be going pretty fast to do it, meaning I don't end up with a rate advantage in most regimes.  While I was able to get behind the Fishbed's 3/9 line, I discovered I'd invariably drop the nose in the turn very quickly after entering my turn.  Can't counter with rudder, so it's this jerking motion trying to use lateral stick, while still pulling...

 

The Lightning was much superior in the vertical, and easily out-accelerated the Fishbed, and this was an improvement; I actually got behind the Fishbed about two or three times, but couldn't ever capitalize on my position.  Need more practice.

[Robert33 2]

Took up a Lightning F6 against a MiG-21F-13. I've identified the areas of difficulty I have, and need to work out some TTP to counter them. First, while the rudder works normally straight and level, once you put alpha on the jet, the rudder pretty much works in reverse. If you put in left rudder, the aircraft yaws left for a micro-second, then begins a harsh right roll. If it is at any significant deflection, the aircraft begins an almost uncontrollable roll in the opposite direction of deflection. Zeroizing the rudder requires about 270-degrees to 360-degrees of roll to recover from. Holding it longer, the aircraft skids while rolling. So, more gentle and opposite of what I'm used to doing. Secondly, the Lightning can sustain higher "g" than a MiG-21F-13, but has to be going pretty fast to do it, meaning I don't end up with a rate advantage in most regimes. While I was able to get behind the Fishbed's 3/9 line, I discovered I'd invariably drop the nose in the turn very quickly after entering my turn. Can't counter with rudder, so it's this jerking motion trying to use lateral stick, while still pulling...

 

The Lightning was much superior in the vertical, and easily out-accelerated the Fishbed, and this was an improvement; I actually got behind the Fishbed about two or three times, but couldn't ever capitalize on my position. Need more practice.

Based on what you've told me, it looks like flat turns aren't the best for the Lightning... Something along the lines of climbing a bit while entering a turn to factor in the nose drop.. I don't know if this would help but in the mobile version most of my sustained turns in the Lightning has a nose-low profile... Not sure if this would apply to the PC version as well... Edited February 13, 2015 by Robert33

[Caesar 305]

So I was thinking about the MiG-17's UFO-ness and that in reality it had a lot of difficulty turning above around 450 knots, so after looking at some of the values in its data.ini, I've found a way to simulate the Fresco's high-speed problems due to lack of hydraulics.  What I did was minimize the lift coefficient (Cla) of the horizontal tail at high speed, and heavily increase the aerodynamic pitch dampening coefficient (Cmq) for the same.  The result?  About a 2.5g max turn at above .8M!

 

I went ahead and tested the flight model both in the MiG-17 and against it.  In AI hands, the Fresco is nowhere near the fearsome opponent it had been.  When the aircraft tries to turn into you at high subsonic speeds, its low-g max (due to aerodynamic forces on the tail) make it turn like a brick.  It is especially effective if you can get the -17 to dive on you, because it will pass its max maneuvering speed and be next to unable to do anything but hit the airbrakes.  Now, once it does, it will quickly drop below the .8M limit, and quickly build "g" and rate.  Result?  I almost got shot down flying the F-4 against the MiG-17 as I chased it in a dive.  As the Fresco entered "ground avoidance" mode, it popped the brakes, pulled, got to about .75M, and began loading "g" like a madman.  So much "g," in fact, that he got his nose around just before I was in firing range, and we both took a snap shot at each other as we passed.  This is kind of typical of the TW Fresco; I didn't adjust any sub-.8M values, so business as usual there.  What the biggest difference is, is that the Fresco can't just whip around and counter you at will if its going too fast like the stock model can.

 

Flying in the Fresco, there isn't too much noticeable change.  As a player, the aircraft "feels" better at low speeds, and so I think I ran into the limits once against a Lightning, just to see what would happen.  Thing to remember is the airbrake if you're trying to chase someone, push past the magic number, and your target takes a hard turn.

 

So what this change does is hobble the aircraft at high subsonic speeds, just as it was in real life, though whether or not it is too much or too little I don't know yet.  Need to read up a little more on the MiG-17.  As such, the AI will be unable to pull a 10 or 12g turn at 500 knots and get right on your tail like it used to be able to; rather, it must keep the bird below .8M, where it handles best anyhow.  Thought it was an interesting experiment.  Give it a shot if you want:

 

MIG-17F_DATA.7z

[cougar_1979 37]

That's a neat experiment!
I will try and give the 17 a few runs tomorrow. Does anyone on the boards have any good MiG experience/lore? I mean, something that would help quantify the loss of control? And does the SF2 FM allow for multiple/gradual changes?

[Caesar 305]

From "Scream of Eagles," "Tooter" Teague (who flew one of the captured MiG-17's) put it that: "We found out very quickly that the MiG ['17] goes out of control at 450 knots...He [the '17] locks up at about 425 and he goes absolutely left wing down...his wing warps...so if he goes 500 knots he's out of control  He's in a left wing roll an can't do anything about it.  So just do 500 knots and it becomes only a question of eyes.  Keeping sight and keeping fast." (p. 138).  This is backed up in Red Eagles: "We had to teach them that if they could - as a defender in an American airplane - get the MiG-17 into the 450-knot regime, and then start to turn, then the MiG pilot would have to overcome this huge aerodynamic load on the tail without any hydraulic assistance.  He may have had the potential to pull 7Gs, but he could probably pull no more than 2Gs because he simply didn't have the physical strength to overcome the loads on the tail." (p.132)

 

And yes, the values do step up.  In each section in the data.ini for aerodynamics, thrust, etc. there are increments by mach number, altitude, etc.  So, if you are looking at the Cmq values for the MiG-17, for example, for speed they step by values of 0.1M, starting at 0.0M, and are modeled out to 1.3M, though the aircraft can't achieve that speed.  I figured .8M was somewhere around 450KIAS, so that's where I started to lessen the efficiency and build the aerodynamic load.

[cougar_1979 37]

<with the Caesar's INI>
I just took 2 sections of F-4N Phantoms against 8 (unknown at the time) MiG-17's. SE Asia, 1973. We picked up radar contacts some 15nm at 11 low and swooped in for the merge. No BVR allowed (house rules) and no shooting what so ever until visual confirmation of the bandits has been established. It was a turkey shoot. I led my boys in fast wide swooping strifes. The bandits had no chance. By the end of the flight it was 8:0. I got ace in a day, and section 2 leader got 3 of them himself. They just can't stay on you once you break through 480kn.

[Robert33 2]

Since we're talking about Vietnam combat, I was wondering how well an A-7 would do in a dogfight with either the MiG-17, MiG-21 and possibly the MiG-23 on the PC version. Tried it on my mobile version but of course, it's just the mobile version.

 

Here's a video of how it turned out for me:

 

[+EricJ 4,244]

I think the rare times I actually flew the A-7 as a DACT it wasn't too bad.  Given the time period though it was sort of like nothing impressive.  Then again it's been so long as well.

[Caesar 305]

Concur with EricJ.  Way back on this thread, I posted an A-7E vs. MiG-21 scenario.  The A-7 didn't do half bad.  It wasn't stellar in a sustained turn, but its overall performance was good enough to allow me the win against the Fishbed the two times I fought it.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Here is a bit of a work around for anyone suffering Lightning Woes. I haven't been flying that plane much due to the noted "hyper sensitive opposite roll response" to rudder imputs. If your using a swizzle stick like me it's next to impossible not to automaticly start feeding in some rudder when the Lightning starts rolling out of a turn so the simple approach is: Lock out the rudder! After extracting the data.ini just add this line at the bottom of the Rudder section:

 

ModelNodeName=Rudder
RotationAxis=Z-Axis
ReverseModelOrientation=TRUE

LockoutSpeed=154.42//....................................Add this

 

In this case, I have the lock out set at the same speed as the landing gear, 300kts. It's like planting your feet firmly on the floor once the gear is retracted.

I remember reading an article somewhere on the internet about the low speed test airplane they built to test the Lightning wing. The opposite roll response to rudder imputs was noted in that airplane at very low speeds but I really don't know if it was as noticeable at high speed as ThirdWire has modeled it. By most accounts I've read, the Lightning was "above average for the time", in the air to air realm. Cheers.

[Stratos 3,188]

Wondering If anyone can give me tips for Soviet fighter use, specially using the MiG's 21 and 23 (with BVR missiles and IR) against modern US fighters like Tomcats, Eagles, Vipers and Hornets using AIM-54, AIM-7 and Winders. Even at low altitude Is hard not to be discovered by the lock down hability of the US fighters. another interesting thing will be to get some tips to defet Sparrows and Phoenix.

And anyone know If keeping your radar OFF really helps against being detected? what about the AI, are they always with their radar ON?

Edited March 14, 2015 by Stratos

[saisran 84]

Nice reads guys! Glad i ventured into the thread today. Bad start of the year for SF2 for me. I gained significant amount of weight so now all of my free time are now devoted to boxing and badminton. Plus I cant get my Mirilis Action video recorder working. Still,really nice reading about the Lightnings and the BVR engagements. 

 

@stratos. I haven't found a decent counter to the AIM-54 and other AHM missiles except being aware that they are there. As you wont really receive any warning when they are launched. What i do is i fly as low to the ground as possible and hide at uneven terrain then get as close as possible really quick as to make the long ranged useless. It would also be great if you could get the bandit to pass overhead so ou can pop up behind them and get them with a heater. Although by using this strategy, your basically sacrificing your squadron as they wont be able to follow you on the ground. You could try ordering them to break from time to time or get them to engage as many bandits as they can so your free from fire.

[Caesar 305]

Active Homing Missiles are a bastard to evade, but something I can tell you about Phoenix, if the AI fires at really long range, it's a great thing for you, especially if you have RHAW gear.  When the F-14 fires, you won't get a strobe warning, just as you wouldn't in reality until the missile goes active.  BUT!  You should still see "14" or something to that effect on the RHAW gear, or possibly a vector since he'll still have his radar on.  Turn 90 degrees to the attack vector and if the F-14 fired at anything beyond about 60-65NM, the missile should fall short, or have so little energy that if you notice its contrail above you, you should be able to out-maneuver it.  Problem is, if you defeat the Phoenix (the AI will likely fire more than one at you), you now have to get through Sparrow range.  This is where terrain masking helps.  Getting into Sparrow range, the AI will again fire at you, and if you're close enough to the ground, you can get as close as possible to break the missile's lock.  From here, pop back up, allow another AIM-7 to be fired at you, then terrain mask again to make it go stupid.  I haven't figured out the range at which Sparrow can't reach a target flying 90-degrees angle off in SF2; in reality, it significantly cut the missile's range (from over 20NM to about 8NM reported for the AIM-7F in open sources), but in-game I don't think it's anywhere near that much of a drop.

 

In close, survivability against the AIM-9 depends highly on the model you're going against.  If its a pre-Lima, you won't have to worry about face shots and can start mixing it up from the merge.  Lima-plus, you have to worry about face shots.  Flares help, angle-off at short range helps, but in TW, those missiles are pretty much death rays if you don't have flares.

[+Crusader 2,101]

Reminds me of the Iraqi Foxbat with the BVP-50-60 mounted on the wings and decoying several AIM-9M (2, iirc) and a 7M

Maybe more tweaking of game L and M SW's is in order ...

[cougar_1979 37]

Wondering If anyone can give me tips for Soviet fighter use, specially using the MiG's 21 and 23 (with BVR missiles and IR) against modern US fighters like Tomcats, Eagles, Vipers and Hornets using AIM-54, AIM-7 and Winders. Even at low altitude Is hard not to be discovered by the lock down hability of the US fighters. another interesting thing will be to get some tips to defet Sparrows and Phoenix.

And anyone know If keeping your radar OFF really helps against being detected? what about the AI, are they always with their radar ON?

Ground hugging and high closure rates seam to help alot with SARHs, not sure about ARMs though. This is an older video of me in a Star Fighter, VS an F-15A with Sparrows:

 

[+EricJ 4,244]

I think the main reason I don't fly Red is that you get shot to hell against Blue, or maybe the game didn't like me.  Still have memories of taking off in SoCal and bushwacked by some Eagles and was like "Never again"

[Stratos 3,188]

The problem with soviet fighters is the very poor RWR that leves you a bit sold against enemy fighters. Will have to try the ground hugging way. What about the A-A radar, have it off and turn it on only when closing against the enemy? and what about my AI wingmen? Can I keep those guys with their radar tun off?

Edited March 15, 2015 by Stratos

[cougar_1979 37]

The problem with soviet fighters is the very poor RWR that leves you a bit sold against enemy fighters. Will have to try the ground hugging way. What about the A-A radar, have it off and turn it on only when closing against the enemy? and what about my AI wingmen? Can I keep those guys with their radar tun off?

Personally, i have never tried it myself (turning off the radar), but i doubt it would work (the AI seams to have perfect SA). I did try to cool down my exhaust nozzles and to minimize thrust signature by going to idle at the merge in order to spoil IR locks, but doesn seam to make one bit od diference either. It doesn't hurt to try though.

[DoctorDrago 3]

Definitely agree with Cougar.  I took a flight of Super Foxes against an Eagle squad yesterday (by accident, but that's not important right now )  and the only way I could stay competitive was to keep super low and fast to avoid Sparrows, then pop up and take advantage of better turn rates and close-in IR shots right after the merge.  Got all but one before the Golden Sparrow came...

[Robert33 2]

Definitely agree with Cougar.  I took a flight of Super Foxes against an Eagle squad yesterday (by accident, but that's not important right now )  and the only way I could stay competitive was to keep super low and fast to avoid Sparrows, then pop up and take advantage of better turn rates and close-in IR shots right after the merge.  Got all but one before the Golden Sparrow came...

 

Super Foxes? you mean Foxhounds? I don't recall foxhounds having a better turn rate than Eagles

[DoctorDrago 3]

Super Foxes? you mean Foxhounds? I don't recall foxhounds having a better turn rate than Eagles

Sorry, I was referring to A-4F Super Fox aggressors.  Foxhounds turn like a...well...Foxhound...

[Robert33 2]

Sorry, I was referring to A-4F Super Fox aggressors.  Foxhounds turn like a...well...Foxhound...

Thanks for the clarification. I'm actually more used to the A-4 being called "Scooter". Something new to learn everyday 

[DoctorDrago 3]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm actually more used to the A-4 being called "Scooter". Something new to learn everyday 

[saisran 84]

The problem with soviet fighters is the very poor RWR that leves you a bit sold against enemy fighters. Will have to try the ground hugging way. What about the A-A radar, have it off and turn it on only when closing against the enemy? and what about my AI wingmen? Can I keep those guys with their radar tun off?

 

Have tried this before in an F-16 loaded with heaters and rockets in a ground mission even got my squad to turn off their radar. All of us got nailed from long range by the fleet of flankers, foxbats and fulcrums set to intercept us.

 

P.S. I have had an experience where the Long range AHM missle (R-60  or R-77 cant remember which one) loitered for an hour and struck me right after i thought it was safe. How long does this missiles stay airborne? I knew from experience that an AIM 54 can sometimes loose track and go on flying trough the stratosphere which is also weird.