Will Croatia replace their MiG-21´s with F-4F´s?

[+Soulfreak 6,524]

Came across this article:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/03/21/354585/croatia-offered-german-phantoms-to-replace-mig-21s.html

Thought it was a joke....

[macelena 1,070]

Gripens. They should get as many as possible. Maybe in batches depending on how much can they spend. But converting from MiGs to Phantoms , while was a good idea for Egypt back in the 70s/80s, would imply changing from a kind of technology to another, and then, have a obsolete technology wich shouldn´t close a much wide gap. It depends on how much you (Germany, i mean) would ask for them, but still the cost in converting and mantaining just to delay another adquisition wouldn´t be worthy.

 

It is the same i said when i heard Argentina was to buy our Mirage F1 a couple of years ago. Just not a good philosophy.

Edited March 22, 2011 by macelena

[CopperminE 0]

Why change one old plane to another old plane? And Croatia have no pilots for F-4, and have good school of Mig-21 pilots.

P.S. Sorry for my English.

[+Brain32 265]

Why change? Maybe because we have like 3 migs and they barely fly?

We have a horrible case of airforce degradation the situation went beyond panic line a while ago. We used to have 40 MiG-21's and 12 Mi-24's. And now all we came to is those few MiG's

 

Now while those F-4's are indeed old as hell they are "ICE" version that's miles above anything we ever had...

 

So the potential benefits are:

- keeping our fighter jet component(!!!)

- transferring to the western technology (missiles, technicians, infrastructure) which we plane to use in the future anyway and will have to transfer to sooner or later anyway...

 

Negatives:

- they are f*** old and we will have to cut it to scrap in a few years too

 

Now I'm aware of the costs and I know transferring to Phantoms is not cost-free at all(the planes themselves are a give-away, a freebie), but still it might not be so crazy afterall.

 

In any case we can say a huge Danke Deutschland for thinking on us when nobody does as they always did

 

In fact the original idea was for us to get their older EF-2000's but as our incompetent corrupted government didn't leave a penny to be wasted on anything but their personal enrichment...we can forget about that or the Gripens which are in fact so perfect for Croatia tactically it's as if the Swedes made it just for us lol. Btw. the Swedish offer was VERY good!

 

Also the USA gave us a really good offer - F-16C's for 1$ but under condition we pay for the MLU upgrade(50 mil$ a piece), this was also quite generous but yeah sorry for our freakin' politicians...

 

All in all now I can just hope our airforce will survive and endure the political(corruptive) punishment...

[+Gepard 11,298]

If you like oldtimers, then the F-4F ICE is a good choice.

[+Brain32 265]

If you like oldtimers, then the F-4F ICE is a good choice.

 

Hehe, let's just say I would rather drive an old Ford Escort than an old LADA Samara

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

AMRAAM capable.....nuff said.

[CopperminE 0]

Cars and Planes are different. Russian/Soviet cars are crap. But planes are good. MiG21 more better than F-4 in intercept role and air combat. And replace is good only if your MiGs on very very vvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeerrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy poor condition. In combat F-4F vs Mig21bis, mig have more chanses to win. Only one good reason to change Lancer's to Phantom's - to train new pilots by NATO standards. Technology used in these fighters are approximately the same.

P.S. I ride an LADA Samara - bad car, really bad car.

 

[+daddyairplanes 10,241]

it would be a good lead in (if being given not bought) until they can afford more modern gear. besides, i wouldn't mind knowing the Double Ugly is servin yet another air force for a few more years

[+Soulfreak 6,524]

In combat F-4F vs Mig21bis, mig have more chanses to win.

I don´t think an bis would win against an ICE.

Our ICE made victorys in different NATO exercises against F-15, F-16, F-18 etc...

So sure a Bis would win...

[Slartibartfast 153]

The F-4F ICE variant has so many advantages over the Mig-21Bis... The only downside is the airframe is old. It has a fairly modern radar, carries a BVR missile way above anything the Mig-21Bis can carry also if required its a good bomb truck has better loiter time okay in a close in dogfight its not the best but if flown correctly it doesn't need to get into that position and as has been said would be great to ride south and see the Rhino still roaming the wilds of the sky...

[JediMaster 451]

Croatia's MiG-21s aren't the modern updated ones countries like Romania have. They COULD upgrade them, but they'd still have the same limitations on range and payload. Plus the list of RH missiles a 21 can carry is VERY short and doesn't include AMRAAMs.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Would take the F-4F ICE every time - far superior with those updates

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Like I said before, AMRAAM. To say the MiG-21bis is superior to the F-4F ICE is completely absurd. It might be more manuverable but the bottom line is the "kill". The ICE would engage those bis' BVR with AIM-120. Those poor guys would not even know what hit them. There are no "style points" in combat, either you win or you die. Nice try but Soviet era jets and tanks are crap. That is a PROVEN fact.

[Caesar 305]

If you can afford 'em, go with the F-4's! Better radar, AMRAAM, gun; better survivability BVR and with a WVR option. WVR, I have to echo Soulfreak - I've got an air combat magazine from the mid 1990's about ACM in the MiG-29G - its pilots admitting to being bested by the F-4F's flown in the former West Germany in DACT following reintegration. Fly a Phantom well and it can do some pretty amazing things. While perhaps not preferable, a good Phantom driver can better an otherwise superior airframe WVR.

 

But I think the kicker is that you say so many of your MiGs aren't even flightworthy anymore. The question of "should we keep the MiG-21's?" when a handful are actually able to fly should be a no-brainer for your government. Would the country rather have an air force, even if older, or have a bunch of jets sitting on the ground doing about as much good as an art piece in front of a museum? I'd take the ICE Phantom any time!

[+Brain32 265]

If you can afford 'em, go with the F-4's! Better radar, AMRAAM, gun; better survivability BVR and with a WVR option. WVR, I have to echo Soulfreak - I've got an air combat magazine from the mid 1990's about ACM in the MiG-29G - its pilots admitting to being bested by the F-4F's flown in the former West Germany in DACT following reintegration. Fly a Phantom well and it can do some pretty amazing things. While perhaps not preferable, a good Phantom driver can better an otherwise superior airframe WVR.

 

But I think the kicker is that you say so many of your MiGs aren't even flightworthy anymore. The question of "should we keep the MiG-21's?" when a handful are actually able to fly should be a no-brainer for your government. Would the country rather have an air force, even if older, or have a bunch of jets sitting on the ground doing about as much good as an art piece in front of a museum? I'd take the ICE Phantom any time!

 

Yeah the MiG's are in horrible condition, the best examples(that fly now) are again from - Germany That would be former Eastern Germany ofcourse, we had those, some Hungarian and some Ukrainian, but EGerman ones were in best condition and if my sources are correct those are the ones that are airworthy now.

We did send some of them to Romania for upgrade in 2003 but they were not upgraded to Lancer standard, all we got was new paint(lol) and NATO compatible GPS and comm devices...and that is what makes the "bisD".

 

I was out of my mind happy when I've heard about the German offer, but like I said, if my government ever made a smart decision...

[Toryu 156]

The most important factor right now is not which airplane is better on paper, but which option does provide less costs and thus enabling future investment into more modern fighters (read: Gripens).

The issues are:

 

- relatively few fast-jet pilots right now in Croatia

- no WSOs right now in Croatia

- costs will about double (at least) per flight-hour, per airframe, which gives us less flighthours at the same net-cost (= little overall-value)

- our F-4Fs are very old (we're talking of 6000-7000+ hours) and although going strong, they'll need to be replaced pretty quickly

 

 

There are several solutions out there (the most cost-efective would propably be scrapping the fighter-force altogether, flying only Pc-9s for a couple of years and then re-establishing the fighter-force with Gripens).

 

All the talk about survivability is of a theoretical matter: there's no use in BVR-ability whan you can't afford flying the jets on a frequent basis (training!).

 

 

BTW: haven't seen you in ages on ubi, Brain - the place kinda lacks the touch of sarcasm you always provided

[+Gepard 11,298]

Yeah the MiG's are in horrible condition, the best examples(that fly now) are again from - Germany That would be former Eastern Germany ofcourse

 

Is this proof that they were ex east german MiG-21bis? Can you tell manufacturing numbers of the planes to confirm it? It is always denied by german authorities, that Germany sold MiG-21bis to Croatia.

 

The old MiG-21bis is of course inferior to the F-4F. If you get a MiG-21bis updated with israeli, italian or new russian radar it would be a different thing. A MiG-21BISON (MiG-21/93) is a very capable plane.

 

But the question is not which plane is more capable. The question must be which plane Croatia can finance! If croatia is not able to hold a fleet of 40 MiG-21 in a flight worthy condition it will be not able to hold a F-4F fleet in flight worthy condition. The F-4F flight hour is 3 times more cost intensive as a MiG-21bis flight hour.

[+Brain32 265]

BTW: haven't seen you in ages on ubi, Brain - the place kinda lacks the touch of sarcasm you always provided

 

Yeah, well the game got old and so did the topics there so I kinda faded :)

 

Is this proof that they were ex east german MiG-21bis? Can you tell manufacturing numbers of the planes to confirm it? It is always denied by german authorities, that Germany sold MiG-21bis to Croatia.

 

Ugh I forgot, they most definitely by any means were NOT former East German, Hungarian or Ukranian, we had a weapons embargo and neither we or anybody else ever broke it.

 

But the question is not which plane is more capable. The question must be which plane Croatia can finance! If Croatia is not able to hold a fleet of 40 MiG-21 in a flight worthy condition it will be not able to hold a F-4F fleet in flight worthy condition. The F-4F flight hour is 3 times more cost intensive as a MiG-21bis flight hour.

As for the MiG's we couldn't keep them airworthy not because of finance issues but because the airframes were crap, our tech guys actually did wonders with them according to the people that flew them but when the airframe is done, it's done. Some things you can not replace...

 

As for finance we could finance 40 F-15's if needed, don't know how to put it, it's complicated we need to put our country in place first. I mean really our former Prime Minister is in Austrian jail due to corruption and embezzlement, abuse of power, etc. etc. the stuff is crazy and can be even called high treason as also former vice president of the government was prosecuted, minister of defense got 4 years, and I pretty much lost count on all the affairs everybody has their finger in everything, the global economical crisis would barely scratch us had there been no theft on the very top of the state...

Currently we spend like 0,00005% of BDP on military.

Pretty much just enough to support all the administration that came there due to nepotism, also to keep those few mig's operational and to support operations in Afganistan and in some peacekeeping missions...

[+Gepard 11,298]

For a country like Croatia, which is not really in the threat situation i think other birds would fit better. Take a look at the czech L-159 ALCA. Its very reliable and AMRAAM capable. It is a subsonic plane, but for what do you need supersonic capabilities really?

To protect and police the croatian airspace the slow flight capabilities of the ALCA would be much more usefull than the possible supersonic flightspeed of the F-4F. An other good plane would be the british HAWK with Vixen radar. Also very good and AMRAAM capable. And if for prestige reasons a jet of the last generation must be bought then the Gripen would be the best choice for Croatia.

 

 

Ugh I forgot, they most definitely by any means were NOT former East German, Hungarian or Ukranian, we had a weapons embargo and neither we or anybody else ever broke it.

 

Of course i know that Germany gave weapons and ammo to Croatia. Some croatian Mi-24 for instance were former east german helis. But with the MiG-21bis it is a little bit different. In the last year i have spoken with former LSK pilots and technicians of the MiG-21bis. And they told me, that all MiG-21bis LASUR of the LSK were scrapped. The MiG-21bisSAU you can see at some museums. If you want i can post the technical numbers of the LSK birds, so that you can confirm wheter the croatian MiG-21bis came from Germany or not. Its an offer.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Gepard

[+Brain32 265]

For a country like Croatia, which is not really in the threat situation i think other birds would fit better. Take a look at the czech L-159 ALCA. Its very reliable and AMRAAM capable. It is a subsonic plane, but for what do you need supersonic capabilities really?

To protect and police the croatian airspace the slow flight capabilities of the ALCA would be much more usefull than the possible supersonic flightspeed of the F-4F. An other good plane would be the british HAWK with Vixen radar. Also very good and AMRAAM capable. And if for prestige reasons a jet of the last generation must be bought then the Gripen would be the best choice for Croatia.

Indeed L-159 seems like a very good airplane, still supersonic component is IMHO a must, not for prestige but also for everything that comes with supersonic planes. But a good mix would be a perfect solution and L-159 really seems to be an awsome solution

Of course i know that Germany gave weapons and ammo to Croatia. Some croatian Mi-24 for instance were former east german helis. But with the MiG-21bis it is a little bit different. In the last year i have spoken with former LSK pilots and technicians of the MiG-21bis. And they told me, that all MiG-21bis LASUR of the LSK were scrapped. The MiG-21bisSAU you can see at some museums. If you want i can post the technical numbers of the LSK birds, so that you can confirm wheter the croatian MiG-21bis came from Germany or not. Its an offer.

 

Well yeah that's all true and known but generally maybe better not to mention too much.

As for the serial numbers we had a few with numbers scratched off, I recall that once some international inspection noticed that and wanted to start an investigation, fortunetly somebody stopped it lol

 

OK I searched some of my stuff(been writing this reply for like 20 mins lol) and even found something about it:

 

As for serial numbers of other planes...I'm not sure if I could find out about all of them...but if I do, I will let you know...

[+Gepard 11,298]

The two numbers are not of east german MiG-21bis.

 

Here the list of all east germ MiG-21bis serials:

75051035

75051108

75051121

75051345

75051347

75051378

75051384

75051402

75051407

75051426

75058003

75058015

75058087

75033148

75033151

75033169

75033205

75033211

75033213

75033219

75033305

75033397

75033419

75035190

75033445

75033507

75033515

75033522

75035201

75035213

75035284

75035289

75035291

75035304

75035374

75035399

75035407

75035422

75035445

75035502

75035841

[+Brain32 265]

The two numbers are not of east german MiG-21bis.

 

Ofcourse they are not buddy that is the point. The original serials were scratched OFF and so all that is left are numbers written with a pen(!!!).

It's impossible to verify the origin of those migs as one could write any serial that would match the story. We had about 20 mig's that were like that...like I said even UN inspection was pissed about it but thankfully nothing was done.

 

All in all I can not confirm or deny with 100% certainty the origin of those Migs, you know how it goes when something is hard or even impossible to verify...stories emerge but one really can not know for sure..

 

BTW thx for the serial numbers but I'm quite sure that even if I find some serials of our migs (and here nobody competent to talk about it likes to) none will match with the list...

[+Gepard 11,298]

[MAKO69 186]

I would take any Phantom over a MIG-21 anyday! Im sure the Phantoms being offered have lower times on them, or would need little to refurb. They have around 50 F-4F ICE in their inventory right now. However; I read a few years back in one of those mags Air Power or Air & Space, about the F-4F and how they are getting old, and airframe time is creeping up. One of the pilots stated that his plane was nearing its max airframe time before it needed an extensive overhaul/refurb and they were limiting what they do for ACM to nurse them along to late 2012-13. The German Air Force is not going to overhaul/refurb any Phantoms, and there are other aircraft approaching the same problem.