F-22 - Worth It?

[+MigBuster]

from the cost effective perspective you have to admit i would have been much cheaper to not develope/build the F-22

because the "legacy" aircrafts are still very capable and upgrading these would have been much cheaper.

or a new(stealth) mulitrole mass produced f-16 like jet would be a better choice for conflicts of the past (Irak 2003, Lybia...)

 

Says who - do you have the figures ? for a start you cant upgrade legacy jets to 5th gen standard - all you would end up with is a load of 30 year old F-16s with Block 60 capability - and yet now it has to contend with the PAK-FA and J-20/J-31 etc - a total false economy . Without the F-22 the F-35 would still be years away potentially - that btw is the mass market stealth fighter !

 

 

i also have to say that the USA is a bit over confident about her own abilities and the technology

much like that little Guy from austria and his "V" Weapons some time ago

and if the US loose a conflict or fight it doesn´t happen or the other´s cheated!

 

like the excersise against our mig-29´s against F-16´s

 

 

For a start - people are not going to say - our weapons are useless etc (See North Korea rhetoric!!)

One of the pilots in the F-117 Osprey units book does mention they expected pretty high losses over Iraq in 1991 - the guys in the know don't underestimate the enemy despite what you might think.

 

Red Flag certainly isnt 1v1,. its many vs many - because 1v1 is totally useless for anything other than G training in reality..

 

For example the F-16A MLU (with wingman) that blasted the MiG-29 out of the sky in a real conflict (Over the Balkans) just fired an AIM-120 at it from miles away- so fat lot of use that HMS in the MiG was!

Edited April 4, 2013 by MigBuster

[dast24]

@ Migbuster

the mentioned DACT Example was a example for the for American arrogance(we are the best, we are the greatest, USA, USA, USA, go USA!)

of some individual(not you, not dave) in your country about other countries or military hardware.

the fulcrum were/are fine aircrafts in dogfight and the version 4++ mig-35´s are also masterpieces in WVR and BVR

 

it was not meant to be a example what could happen with the F-22. i´m completely aware that the DACT is nothing more than "G" Training :-)

i´m also no saying that your weapons are useless, but here and there overestimaded.(like air to air missile in vietnam yeah it is a old example but i think you got the point)

 

i´m also know that it is not possible to transfer a f-16 to 5th gen but you can bring them to 4+gen and this could MAYBE more cost effective.

the other side of the coin is that Russia or China developed 5th Gen Fighter AFTER the USA. maybe they had never done if the USA hadn´t done it before.

 

For example the F-16A MLU that blasted the MiG-29 out of the sky in a real conflict (Over the Balkans) just fired an AIM-120 at it from miles away- so fat lot of use that HMS in the MiG was!

yeah and make a guess why they did it with the AIM-120 and not in dogfight with guns or IR missiles.....correct (besides other causes that are not know exactly why he selected the slammer.) because DACT against the mig-29´s in germany does make one point very clear: do not get into dogfight with the mig-29

[+Gepard]

Dave, they really messed him up, they got him good when the wall was still up. To bad cause he is missing "IT" if he still sees life through the distorted port hole in the iron curtain.

LOL. Welcome in the world of Cold War.

 

I'm not on NKs side and will it never be. But my experience with soviet style weapons give me some knowledge which westerners sure not have, and cant have. And my experience says: never underestimate the opponent.

Maybe, that i play the role of advokatus diavoli here. The task of an advokatus diavoli is to force the overconfident guys to rethink their positions. To find the mistakes in their ideas, so that they can make a better job.

It is better to prepare for the worst case and fight easily, that to prepare for best case and pay with blood.

[MAKO69]

LOL. Welcome in the world of Cold War.

 

I'm not on NKs side and will it never be. But my experience with soviet style weapons give me some knowledge which westerners sure not have, and cant have. And my experience says: never underestimate the opponent.

Maybe, that i play the role of advokatus diavoli here. The task of an advokatus diavoli is to force the overconfident guys to rethink their positions. To find the mistakes in their ideas, so that they can make a better job.

It is better to prepare for the worst case and fight easily, that to prepare for best case and pay with blood.

 

You may not be on their side, but you certainly seem to be rooting for them in you posts.

If Soviet type war planes are so advanced why where private U.S. companies allowed to purchase and fly Mig-29s and SU-27s. Ceartainly don't see any private companies flying F-15, F-18, F-16 in former Eastern Block countries. I feel bad for North Korea if they do something stupid and provoke military action. I feel they may bite off way more than they can chew. As for China stepping in to help them, I don't see that happening. China would not jeapordize there thriving US based economy because of North Korea.

[+Brain32]

You may not be on their side, but you certainly seem to be rooting for them in you posts.

No he is not but some of you guys get paranoid ideas so easily it can be funny sometimes...

 

If Soviet type war planes are so advanced why where private U.S. companies allowed to purchase and fly Mig-29s and SU-27s. Ceartainly don't see any private companies flying F-15, F-18, F-16 in former Eastern Block countries.

Think about this, you will understand why this argument is extremely silly.

 

I feel bad for North Korea if they do something stupid and provoke military action. I feel they may bite off way more than they can chew. As for China stepping in to help them, I don't see that happening. China would not jeapordize there thriving US based economy because of North Korea.

I agree with this one completely.

[Slartibartfast]

As to Gepard I have respect for him playing the Devil's Advocate in this even if he was on the other side of the Wall ... We all agree that the 22 is not invunerable and it is possible to shoot it down but to be honest this is setting up the NK's to advertise that the US is serious about South Korea. As to Russian jets being sold to private companies. Russia accepts it and these birds are sold to make revenue and they were not the latest block out there, I know that the Teen series are not the latest but the Western militaries do not want to give up a single jet and to purchase one privately would cost a bucket load of cash compared to a 29 / 27...

[+MigBuster]

the other side of the coin is that Russia or China developed 5th Gen Fighter AFTER the USA. maybe they had never done if the USA hadn´t done it before.

Its a valid point you make - however I'm not so certain having jets on a par with the Su-35 etc would be good enough - (let alone the S-400 system) - and you have the shot down F-117 - which Russia certainly may of made some use of regarding developing a stealth jet - even if the F-22 didn't come about.

 

yeah and make a guess why they did it with the AIM-120 and not in dogfight with guns or IR missiles.....correct (besides other causes that are not know exactly why he selected the slammer.) because DACT against the mig-29´s in germany does make one point very clear: do not get into dogfight with the mig-29

 

At a guess - no one ever goes looking for a turning fight - youd have to be nuts considering the forces involved, the fuel required, and the fact you lose all your SA - far easier with a missile - and less chance of getting hit by debris or colliding.

 

the F-16A MLU today has a far more advanced HMCS and AIM-9X compared to what was on those old MiG-29Gs (and should be more agile) - but even so a turning fight is always the last option surely for any jet- and should always include a wingman observing and ready to step in.

 

 

Unfortunately the thing that exercise determined may have been this - which was posted on F-16.net (Cant verify sorry)

 

 

Lt. Col. Johann Köck, commander of the German MiG-29 squadron from

September 1995 to September 1997, was outspoken in his evaluation of the Fulcrum. “It has no range, its navigation system is unreliable and the radar breaks often and does not lend it self to autonomous operations”, he said. He added that the best mission for NATO MiG-29s would be as a dedicated adversary aircraft for other NATO fighters and not as part of NATO’s frontline fighter force.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MigBuster

[+MigBuster]

As to Gepard I have respect for him playing the Devil's Advocate in this even if he was on the other side of the Wall ... We all agree that the 22 is not invunerable and it is possible to shoot it down but to be honest this is setting up the NK's to advertise that the US is serious about South Korea.

 

Makes it more interesting argument at the end of the day

 

Maybe not as interesting as some of the North Korean news Videos when they make announcements - like something out of a film!

 

anyway patiently waiting for the video of the MiG-21MFs shooting down some F-22 airfix models

[dast24]

okay

lets conclude:

the raptor have to show his worth in combat.

 

the worth in regard to "pushing the limit" and advance the technology is there.

and it is a cool toy for the "big boys"

 

it has a cool looking desgin with all baydoors closed.

i hope cadeteBRA will release the new modeled F-22 for SF-2 as soon as possible :-D

[+Brain32]

Maybe not as interesting as some of the North Korean news Videos when they make announcements - like something out of a film!

 

LOL, btw. did you see cuts of their news? That angry lady that is shouting out news? I laughed so hard I almost cried :)))))))

[MAKO69]

No he is not but some of you guys get paranoid ideas so easily it can be funny sometimes...

 

Think about this, you will understand why this argument is extremely silly.

 

I agree with this one completely.

 

I don't think people are paranoid just "ANOID" with N. Korea for being such little pricks.

 

I find no humor in the purchase of former Soviet Block aircraft. However you may, why? I don't know.

Edited April 5, 2013 by MAKO69

[+MigBuster]

LOL, btw. did you see cuts of their news? That angry lady that is shouting out news? I laughed so hard I almost cried :)))))))

 

Yeah totally hilarious - it really is like something out of Team America

 

theres another one with a male (I think) news reader standing up - he looks pretty serious.....time to be scared...........or not

[+Dave]

dast24

 

You can think I was being insulting all you want. I was pointing out that his thinking is outdated. Not an attack against his character. But then you proved that the Anti American sentiment in Europe is still strong though. Thank you for reaffirming that. Our military is not over confident, we just train to be really good. As you can see from the last 2 wars though we are not infallible. I will assert though that US Air power is the best in the world. (With Israel a close 2nd) We have proved that time and time again. However that doesn't make us bullet proof. We train and train and train and then the make us train some more. You are WAY off base in your assessment.

 

War isn't fair, a country is going to use the best it has to achieve victory and nothing less. SO using the F-22 is not a stretch by any means. You go to war with victory in mind.

[+Brain32]

But then you proved that the Anti American sentiment in Europe is still strong though. Thank you for reaffirming that.

This is so not true it's actually sad.(it goes with paranoia I mentioned before)

You guys seem to have some sort of complex on the level of national mentality, to us you are like that friend will all have that simply can not take critique and even less so a joke on his own account.

 

Any kind of USA-Europe quarrel is completely pointless because we are you and you are we

 

And just so I don't have to explain what I wrote above here's a fun fact, 75% of total USA population is of European decent.

Added trivia related to me: Almost as much Croats lives in USA as in the Croatia.

 

So yeah we sooo hate us, I mean you...

Chill out guys and don't let politicians named O'Riley, McBain, Pagliucci, Johansson, Vladek, or whatever ultra-european named politicians you have tell you there's anti-USA sentiment in Europe because that's as stupid as teddy bears in frozen hell...

[macelena]

We don´t have Anti-American sentiments in Europe. We are too busy with Anti-European sentiments

[MAKO69]

dast24

 

You can think I was being insulting all you want. I was pointing out that his thinking is outdated. Not an attack against his character. But then you proved that the Anti American sentiment in Europe is still strong though. Thank you for reaffirming that. Our military is not over confident, we just train to be really good. As you can see from the last 2 wars though we are not infallible. I will assert though that US Air power is the best in the world. (With Israel a close 2nd) We have proved that time and time again. However that doesn't make us bullet proof. We train and train and train and then the make us train some more. You are WAY off base in your assessment.

 

War isn't fair, a country is going to use the best it has to achieve victory and nothing less. SO using the F-22 is not a stretch by any means. You go to war with victory in mind.

 

Roger that!

[+Dave]

Brain and macelena

 

I know it isnt true. I was making a point of him saying I was being insulting to Gepard when I wasnt. So I decided to take his comment out of text too to prove a point. Its dutch door action. Oh no I just insulted the Dutch.....

[Slartibartfast]

Brain and macelena

 

I know it isnt true. I was making a point of him saying I was being insulting to Gepard when I wasnt. So I decided to take his comment out of text too to prove a point. Its dutch door action. Oh no I just insulted the Dutch.....

 

 

I think play's it just right!!!

[macelena]

Brain and macelena

 

I know it isnt true. I was making a point of him saying I was being insulting to Gepard when I wasnt. So I decided to take his comment out of text too to prove a point. Its dutch door action. Oh no I just insulted the Dutch.....

 

Nevermind, sometimes you say something, it is misunderstood and then the wrong idea spreads like the Spanish Flu, and you end having the Spanish Inquisition up your ...oh, FML double selfkill.

[dast24]

I know it isnt true. I was making a point of him saying I was being insulting to Gepard when I wasnt....

i doesn´t say you were insulting

i saied

..the text i quoted sounds a bit offense or snootily...

;-)

 

so you cleared the situation with:

..insulting to Gepard when I wasnt....

so i´m fine with it.

 

@Brain32:

to us you are like that friend will all have that simply can not take critique and even less so a joke on his own account.

so true :-D

[+Gepard]

I dont feel insulted by Dave. In a discussion with different points of views it can become hard to hard. But this is not personally.

I came from a system where only one opion was the correct one. And with my own mind of thinking i had had some troubles in the good (bad) old time.

Thatswhy i like the freedom of discussion without to feel the fear in the neck that wrong ears could hear the wrong words. (Enemy is listening! or Stasi is listening! take whatever you want)

If i criticise Daves position i must accept his critics on my position. And Vice Versa too. Thats fair enough. Thats is discussion.

If someone likes only one mainstream talks, then he goes back to the cold war times. This is the contrapoint of freedom. This i had had long enough and i dont want this back.

 

And if someone believe, that critics on the USA (Israel, Russia, Mongolia, Germany, take whatever you want) is the same like Anti-Americanism (Anti-Semitism, Anti-... äh, is there a word for against Russia??? ) then he should ask himself, wheter he is already out of the trenches of the Cold War.

 

And now lets stop the Anti- somethink OT discussion and come back to the Raptor.

 

Edited April 5, 2013 by Gepard

[+Dave]

I came from a system where only one opinion was the correct one.

 

I would of hate to think what would of happened if you had a conflicting one during that time my friend. I'm glad you made it through those times.

[Jug]

I think Typhoid hit it on the head. Was the F-22 worth it, I'll tell you when the smoke clears from the next time the US runs up against another tough air opponent.

[+Typhoid]

I think Typhoid hit it on the head. Was the F-22 worth it, I'll tell you when the smoke clears from the next time the US runs up against another tough air opponent.

 

I occasionally get one right!