Gents, I think we have sighting of the new game...

[eraser_tr 29]

A shame, a one man team with a small budget, I'd welcome such (I'm assuming free) help. Even if you worked out the legalities to protect his source he'd be opposed to it?

 

Catering to the least common denominator as far as systems go isn't really a good idea. Sure more people run it, but it also limits sales from impulse buyers. If someone saw LOMAC and WOE on the shelves at bestbuy and wanted to give flight sims a try, they'd buy LOMAC because its by far prettier out of the box (except for afterburner effects that make the stock SF ones look fantastic). More detail without being cutting edge would be best.

[WarlordATF 1]

I Think your missing the point of the Thirdwire Sims. They are not trying to compete with F4 for realism or Lomac for graphics. They are meant to be fun sims that almost anyone can run without hundreds of dollars worth of upgrades.

 

They cater to a wide selection of systems, not just the uber elite super modded computers.Sure, they could look better or be more realistic, but thats not the goal. TW Sims are more like the old EA/Janes sims that almost anyone could enjoy.

 

These games feature mass appeal and are not inended for the anal retentive rivet counters. There are plenty of other sims for them. Honestly, What these sims lack in world detail is made up for in the Aircraft models, which are very good. Better than F4AF, But not quite at LOMAC levels.

 

IMO 50FPS and Average Graphics is alot more fun than 10-15 FPS and Hyper-Realism.

 

Just My 2 Cents

[Viper6 3]

I Think your missing the point of the Thirdwire Sims. They are not trying to compete with F4 for realism or Lomac for graphics. They are meant to be fun sims that almost anyone can run without hundreds of dollars worth of upgrades.

 

They cater to a wide selection of systems, not just the uber elite super modded computers.Sure, they could look better or be more realistic, but thats not the goal. TW Sims are more like the old EA/Janes sims that almost anyone could enjoy.

 

These games feature mass appeal and are not inended for the anal retentive rivet counters. There are plenty of other sims for them. Honestly, What these sims lack in world detail is made up for in the Aircraft models, which are very good. Better than F4AF, But not quite at LOMAC levels.

 

IMO 50FPS and Average Graphics is alot more fun than 10-15 FPS and Hyper-Realism.

 

Just My 2 Cents

Agreed, I own LOMAC and just to get off the ground is a check list and to get either type of Maverick to lock on to and fire is wayyy too much button sequencing and knowing aspect angles and other crap. Way too much practice involved! Now I did save all my wooden dimes to get a system that is very good and is up-gradeable, so playing any sim is not a problem, I just enjoy being able to mud move without having to go to actual flight school.

[column5 63]

Christ allmighty...you guys have heard of a detail slider??? Jesus...let's just accept some 1998-vintage terrain 'cause some guys have weak systems.

[tank03 1]

I Think your missing the point of the Thirdwire Sims. They are not trying to compete with F4 for realism or Lomac for graphics. They are meant to be fun sims that almost anyone can run without hundreds of dollars worth of upgrades.

 

They cater to a wide selection of systems, not just the uber elite super modded computers.Sure, they could look better or be more realistic, but thats not the goal. TW Sims are more like the old EA/Janes sims that almost anyone could enjoy.

 

These games feature mass appeal and are not inended for the anal retentive rivet counters. There are plenty of other sims for them. Honestly, What these sims lack in world detail is made up for in the Aircraft models, which are very good. Better than F4AF, But not quite at LOMAC levels.

 

IMO 50FPS and Average Graphics is alot more fun than 10-15 FPS and Hyper-Realism.

 

Just My 2 Cents

 

It's not about rivet counting. You can still have the same level of gameplay and the same mass appeal, but just have it using a terrain that somewhat resembles the real world. I can't imagine anyone would choose NOT to buy the game because the terrain was TOO good.

[eraser_tr 29]

Thank you Column5 and tank for stating what many are obviously forgetting about. Why can't the highest settings allow for a more appealing look, with lower settings saving the performance for older systems, isn't that what graphics options are for?

 

I'd say the same with avionics and whatnot. If I set it to "Hard" it'd be nice to be able to start and shut down engines for example, start on the tarmac, worry about stalls and spins and other things people ask for, but if it was set to easy, tada! no stalls, spins engine startup, just hit the afterburners and go.

 

Options and choices keep everyone happy. And the more flexible the game is, the wider audience it can sell to.

[+Crusader 2,101]

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=27753#27753

[+Deuces 0]

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=27753#27753

 

While I understand that TK is working with a limited budget and has offered excellent support, patch wise, I think he does not take advantage of the community and support he has for the series. My honest opinion is that had it not been for the modding community, this series would have died long before WOE made it's debut. I feel that the one thing that keeps this series going is the anticipation of the next addon or discovery by a very dedicated group. This also includes the excitment by a new modder that has found he can contribute with a bit of effort. I think it would be very easy for TK to enlist any of a number of modders, including myslef, to contribute to the cause and not asked for a plug nickel! I would work on terrains for nothin...I do it now. I don't understand why the pool of resources is not pulled from in an effort to take it to the next level. No money..no problem. I'm a non-profit organization.

[eraser_tr 29]

I'll second what Deuces just said. If he made real use of the community the whole series could be leaps and bounds ahead of anything the other sims offer. I'd also be willing to pay more, $40 or 50 it usually costs a brand new game, especially if it meant more support, activity and quicker advances.

[WarlordATF 1]

Fair Enough, I Would never knock what the modders have done for this series. They are a large part of why this series is so great. I also agree that TK should consider tapping into that talent and there generous offers.

 

At the same time i think that raising system requirements is a bad idea. My system would not be effected, but if anyone elses is than i think its wrong for me to put my wants above there needs.

 

If better looking graphics can be done without making the game run badly for others than i am all for it. Another thing to consider is that this engine is completed and owned by TK, I can understand why he would not want to spend more time and money to create a new one.

 

There is nothing wrong with this engine, It works quite well and is not half as buggy as some of the more advanced engines. So if we want advances, lets think about what can be done with what we have to make it better, instead of calling it dated, i see it as reliable and stable.

 

So what do you think we could help TK add to this engine that he has not already thought of? Lets put a positive spin on this instead of insulting the work that has already been done on this engine.

 

Things i think should remain unchanged is the ease of modding and good frame rates. Better terrain details and textures that are adjustable for lower end systems are something i think we all agree on, right?

[+Brain32 265]

I don't find anything wrong with a tile based terrain provided it varied.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with tiles, even without going over default number of tiles it can look very good. I was just explaining that if you really want to have true terrain complexity it takes a different kind of terrain overall. And I have to admit that making 4-way seamless tiles a bit of a pain lol

 

What would IMO make a major difference is, like I already said, a better terrain editor and some other more or less smaller additions. From top of my head:

1. Greater zoom for terrain editor, 6400% would be peachy

2. Ability to place objects/targets with terrain editor in a similar manner like one can do with trees and building(that would also allow wonders for road/railroad system)

3. More options and flexibility when placing objects, easier texture maping of trees and buildings

4. Group of trees as a single alpha object(that would do wonders for forrested areas)

Etc, etc. With things such as this, and I'm sure other people that worked in any way with terrains could add more, nobody would complain about terrains in SF series

[triplethr3at 0]

The tree grouping idea sounds good. However what realy makes this game better than all the rest are the tons of new airplanes that the modders keep dishing out. Every time I think Im getting bored of the game a new plane comes out and gets me sucked right back into the sim. I agree that the terrains neeed improvement but what I think realy makes the game worth it is the prospect of getting new planes al the time. Thats what I think you guys should focus your attention on. Great palnes = great sim for me anyways the rest doesnt realy bother me too much

[+Dave 2,322]

While I understand that TK is working with a limited budget and has offered excellent support, patch wise, I think he does not take advantage of the community and support he has for the series. My honest opinion is that had it not been for the modding community, this series would have died long before WOE made it's debut. I feel that the one thing that keeps this series going is the anticipation of the next addon or discovery by a very dedicated group. This also includes the excitment by a new modder that has found he can contribute with a bit of effort. I think it would be very easy for TK to enlist any of a number of modders, including myslef, to contribute to the cause and not asked for a plug nickel! I would work on terrains for nothin...I do it now. I don't understand why the pool of resources is not pulled from in an effort to take it to the next level. No money..no problem. I'm a non-profit organization.

 

You hit it right on the head Deuces. I have never understood why he hasn't pulled from our talent pool. Even when we have asked him about it we haven't got an answer. The modding community has done alot to further his sims and I think that at least listening to some of our suggestions should be the least he should do.

[+Jimbib 747]

I can only imagine that in order to be able to create parts of the game, like new flight models, terrain, cockpits, at some point you may have to have access to the game source code to fully understand how to implement features that are hard coded into the sim. If this is the case, I can certainly see why TK would be hesitant, or not want to have outside parties working on the games without any sort of binding that no person would take advantage of access to the code. Besides, even if third parties were to work for free for TK, there would be plenty of legal issues in correspondance with the publisher especially.

Edited October 12, 2007 by bibbolicious

[Murphy'S 15]

it's funny, we've got the same discussion on the french board C6...

[+Deuces 0]

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with tiles, even without going over default number of tiles it can look very good. I was just explaining that if you really want to have true terrain complexity it takes a different kind of terrain overall. And I have to admit that making 4-way seamless tiles a bit of a pain lol

 

What would IMO make a major difference is, like I already said, a better terrain editor and some other more or less smaller additions. From top of my head:

1. Greater zoom for terrain editor, 6400% would be peachy

2. Ability to place objects/targets with terrain editor in a similar manner like one can do with trees and building(that would also allow wonders for road/railroad system)

3. More options and flexibility when placing objects, easier texture maping of trees and buildings

4. Group of trees as a single alpha object(that would do wonders for forrested areas)

Etc, etc. With things such as this, and I'm sure other people that worked in any way with terrains could add more, nobody would complain about terrains in SF series

 

You're absolutely right on all of those points, though I don't find mapping trees or buildings difficult at all.

 

The tree grouping idea sounds good. However what realy makes this game better than all the rest are the tons of new airplanes that the modders keep dishing out.

 

Which has been the majority mindset of the commmunity and why I do not spend much time on terrains much anymore.

 

 

I can only imagine that in order to be able to create parts of the game, like new flight models, terrain, cockpits, at some point you may have to have access to the game source code to fully understand how to implement features that are hard coded into the sim. If this is the case, I can certainly see why TK would be hesitant, or not want to have outside parties working on the games without any sort of binding that no person would take advantage of access to the code. Besides, even if third parties were to work for free for TK, there would be plenty of legal issues in correspondance with the publisher especially.

 

I think you're absolutely right bib, but improvement in the tools,TE/WE, couldn't hurt.

[+JSF_Aggie 1,291]

Which has been the majority mindset of the commmunity and why I do not spend much time on terrains much anymore.

 

But there's still several of us that wish you would. :yes:

[+Dave 2,322]

But there's still several of us that wish you would. :yes:

 

 

Here here!

[Aintry 0]

The tree grouping idea sounds good. However what realy makes this game better than all the rest are the tons of new airplanes that the modders keep dishing out.

 

Yup. :yes:

[eraser_tr 29]

Deuces, get my PM?

 

Source code is an issue, but something should be able to be worked out. The problem there is lawyers are very expensive, and it'd probably be more cost efficient to do it like he is now than to pay the legal fees. For the game, thats an issue, but if he released the code for the terrain editor, it would have profound effects on what he could offer as far as terrain.

 

If he's essentially a one man team, Razbam and YAP charge for their work, the only real difference between him and any one of us is that he has access to the games code. For big projects (OTC, this Desert Storm thing, my Janes project) we don't make everything ourselves, we make use of whats already been done for aircraft, terrain, etc. Again it'd be no different than YAP, they include deuces effects and vietnam tiles and those are freely available, so it shouldn't be an issue.

[+Deuces 0]

Deuces, get my PM?

 

Source code is an issue, but something should be able to be worked out. The problem there is lawyers are very expensive, and it'd probably be more cost efficient to do it like he is now than to pay the legal fees. For the game, thats an issue, but if he released the code for the terrain editor, it would have profound effects on what he could offer as far as terrain.

 

If he's essentially a one man team, Razbam and YAP charge for their work, the only real difference between him and any one of us is that he has access to the games code. For big projects (OTC, this Desert Storm thing, my Janes project) we don't make everything ourselves, we make use of whats already been done for aircraft, terrain, etc. Again it'd be no different than YAP, they include deuces effects and vietnam tiles and those are freely available, so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

PM received and replied.

TK 's reply to the question on the TE source was that it contains some of the core source that would be found in the game itself. I respect that he has always been up front and accomondating when possible. My only wish is that the TE would make some features function that I see in it. As stated before..the connect rivers and connect roads. I don't have a problem placing trees or buildings, mapping trees or buildings (it's rather easy). I wish I had more time to make the app I use to do this more user friendly so that I could distribute it to you all. Hopefully one day I will find that time. I don't put aside this time mainly because I don't see the majority interest in terrains. I don't fault anyone for that...I see the hits from my previous site and there is just not a huge interest. Let's face it, a new plane is cool and I respect the effort it takes to make one....what they fly over is an after thought. Most seem to be content with what's out there. I really apologize for the hijack on this subject but it is terrains and effects have been my passion with the game since its infancy.

 

Side note:

Since you mention some payware addons. I have great admiration for the YAP team for the passion they put into thier addon and it is truely an ADDON. It's so much more than most know. What they do should be compensated for as they lay out cash to make their dreams a reality. Quite honestly I think that is the only addon I feel justifies payware. They do not sell my mods, they include them and I am grateful and flattered by this.

 

Now back to the discussion on the new sighting. Again I apologize if there was a hijacking.

Edited October 13, 2007 by Deuces

[+NeverEnough 78]

Deuces, your web site is really missed, and I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for more than myself!

[eraser_tr 29]

People are very interested in terrain, the problem is the TE is the most intimidating user unfriendly tool around and scares people off. Bandwidth to your site is a poor indicator, a better gauge would combatace's downloads, as its infinitely easier to just download everything from here than to go across everyone's individual pages.

[tank03 1]

Deuces, your web site is really missed, and I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for more than myself!

 

Agreed!

[WarlordATF 1]

People are very interested in terrain, the problem is the TE is the most intimidating user unfriendly tool around and scares people off. Bandwidth to your site is a poor indicator, a better gauge would combatace's downloads, as its infinitely easier to just download everything from here than to go across everyone's individual pages.

 

I'm running Vista and i cant even get the TE to start.

 

I agree some upgrades on the flying enviroment could benefit greatly from the community.

 

I believe all TK would need is a standard release form for any community based work he used in future releases.

 

I think most modders would have no problem agreeing to it. He just needs to discuss this on his Thirdwire forums and publish the release form.