Sparkchaser2010 24 Posted January 17, 2011 Full Article with Pictures The Danger Room Old School Jet Retooled to Slay Stealth Fighters By David Axe January 14, 2011 It’s been just three weeks since China unveiled its new J-20 stealth fighter, and already the U.S. Air Force has plans well underway to defeat the mysterious plane from Chengdu. No, the Pentagon won’t be buying more F-22 Raptors from Lockheed Martin. Instead, the U.S. military’s main flying branch has turned to an older jet that, with upgrades, could prove to be an even better J-20-killer than the newer, more expensive F-22. That’s right: the Boeing F-15 Eagle, one of the stars of the 1991 Gulf War, is quickly shaping up as America’s main countermeasure to China’s new fighter for the next 20 years. To be fair, the F-15 and F-22 (and, later, the F-35) will probably usually work in teams. But the F-15, with its better sensors, could prove to be the backbone for U.S. and allied forces in any Pacific dogfight. The magic is all in the Eagle’s nose. Compared to the angular, stealthy F-22, the totally non-stealth F-15 has a more capacious nosecone that can carry a larger radar. The larger the radar, the more likely it is to detect the J-20, despite that plane’s potentially very small frontal radar cross-section. The F-15 also routinely carries more fuel and missiles than the F-22. The Pentagon has begun fitting new, electronically scanned Raytheon APG-63(V)3 radars to around 175 F-15Cs dating from the 1980s. In a few years, the 220 ’90s-vintage F-15Es — normally optimized for ground attack, but also capable of air combat — will get new APG-82(V)4 radars, also from Raytheon. To pay for this electronic transformation, the Pentagon has set aside some of the roughly $34 billion it will save by shutting down several redundant Air Force headquarters and command centers and delaying production of the troubled F-35 stealth fighter-bomber. The F-15 initiative was important enough to warrant mention in Secretary of Defense Robert Gates’ announcement of Pentagon cost-cutting measures last week. Gates said the modernized F-15s would be “viable well into the future.” That might come as a surprise to some observers, considering that just three years ago, an F-15C disintegrated in mid-air, nearly killing the pilot. After that accident, some observers declared the F-15 unfit for duty, for reasons of age. But the Air Force determined that a poorly made part, rather than age, caused the F-15 disintegration — and that with repairs and good maintenance, F-15Cs could keep flying until at least 2025, and E-models until 2035. “But those are just planning factors,” said Col. Gerald Swift, the Air Force’s top F-15 maintainer. “Right now, there is nothing life-limiting on the F-15. It is a very well-designed platform.” The sprawling U.S. Air Force base in Okinawa, Japan, will be the main home of the modernized F-15s. The first batch of F-15Cs with the new (V)3 radars arrived in December. By 2013, there will be 54 improved F-15Cs at the Pacific outpost, flying alongside a rotating force of 12-18 F-22s. The Air Force is working on new tactics to blend the F-15s and F-22s into a single team. As currently envisioned, the F-15s would fly with extra fuel tanks and AMRAAM missiles and with radars blaring, while the F-22s, carrying less gas and fewer missiles, would turn off their radar and sneak up on the enemy for ninja-style jabs. “Our objective is to fly in front with the F-22s, and have the persistence to stay there while the [F-22s] are conducting their [low-observable] attack,” Maj. Todd Giggy, an F-15 pilot, told Aviation Week. This teaming will get a big boost starting in 2014, when the Air Force finally installs secure data links on the F-22, allowing it to covertly swap targeting info with other planes. Even then, the F-15 will have a better radar and more weapons and endurance, making it the Pentagon’s preferred J-20-killer — and the biggest reason why the United States hasn’t yet lost control of the airspace over the Pacific. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MigBuster 2,861 Posted January 17, 2011 The F-15 AWACs hey - good luck with that idea! - so basically they are hoping the J-20 is about as stealthy as an F-5! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wrench 9,421 Posted January 17, 2011 why not? the Iranian's routinely used their Tomcats in an AWACS role in the Iran/Irag war. wrench kevin stein Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MigBuster 2,861 Posted January 17, 2011 why not? the Iranian's routinely used their Tomcats in an AWACS role in the Iran/Irag war. wrench kevin stein Well just like the US now - they had to make the best of what they had at the time! - Iraq didn't have Stealth bombers - slight concern when using radar as a primary means of detection - not so great if it only detects it 10 miles out max. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+daddyairplanes 8,629 Posted January 18, 2011 seems we've adopted an old communist bloc trick, send out a bunch of older equipment first to find the enemy, then let your a team wipe out the enemy. great tactic, unless your flying the older equipment! how about instead not only data link with other AF tactical aircraft but with naval, Patriot battery and satellite survellience assetts as well. if you have the radar power being pumped out by the likes of patriot, aegis, Sentry and thaad and link it all together i do believe you can detect the birds more than 10 miles out. and fer chrissakes build more airframes! don't just retool the ones we already have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted January 18, 2011 And once again the decision to retire the F-14 but keep the legacy Hornets around seems misguided. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ST0RM 145 Posted January 18, 2011 And once again the decision to retire the F-14 but keep the legacy Hornets around seems misguided. Indeed! I'm curious to know if the Navy is now second guessing themselves on that decision. The task of swapping trapped out C-models for low-time A-models and back again, plus all of it's logistical qweep, has got to raise a few eyebrows. I wonder how keeping the new-build and low-time F-14s would have eased some of this drama. Getting back on track with the Golden Eagle, the active duty has given them all to the Air Guard, so I'm curious if the active duty will bail them back. Or maybe just stand up another associate unit and share the jets. -S Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheStig 38 Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) Do dumping a bunch of money into a legacy airframe, that is clearly visible on radar is going to be better than investing into a next generation aircraft that is superior to others against it? Got it... This makes no sense at all other than the fact that they are setting our Air Force up for FAILURE. Why don't they just dig up old F-4s without guns in their nose and throw AESAs in them too? Afterall, it's politics that believe that concepts such as 'gunless air combat' and 'radar visible aircraft are superior' to win air wars... Edited January 18, 2011 by TheStig Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caesar 305 Posted January 19, 2011 Indeed! I'm curious to know if the Navy is now second guessing themselves on that decision. The task of swapping trapped out C-models for low-time A-models and back again, plus all of it's logistical qweep, has got to raise a few eyebrows. I wonder how keeping the new-build and low-time F-14s would have eased some of this drama. Getting back on track with the Golden Eagle, the active duty has given them all to the Air Guard, so I'm curious if the active duty will bail them back. Or maybe just stand up another associate unit and share the jets. -S I was thinking that myself; bigger nose, huge radar - what if you updated a Turkey with an AESA? The thing is, it would be possible with the few -B and -D models that are left in war reserve, but the logistical support, the re-training personnel to upkeep 'em and the few pilots that would fly and operate them make it seem to me that the F-14's in war reserve are going to stay there forever, or be put to the torch eventually. Sad but true. Or maybe sling an Upgraded Early Warning Radar to a series of hundreds of balloons. That sucker can see really tiny stuff really friggin' far away. Then we'd actually be flying radars! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+ST0RM 145 Posted January 19, 2011 The thing is, it would be possible with the few -B and -D models that are left in war reserve... Sadly, there are less than a dozen left in AMARC. They're disposal was accelerated and they were chopped up quickly. The Tomcat now only lives on in flightsims. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caesar 305 Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Yep, just checked - 11 had been listed in war reserve in mid 2010 (half of 'em "A" models!). Not a chance, Baby! It is good to see that the Eagle is continuing to come through as we enter the next decade of the 21st century though. I recall reading reports that the plane would be completely gone by the mid 2010's (~2015-2018), replaced by F-22's (with the Strike Eagle anticipated to last longer). That prediction fell on its face. With this new proposal, it looks like the Eagle might be headed to the 2020's+ - good longevity. EDIT: I do wonder about adding an IRST capability to the F-15? Not sure how much better the chances would be for long range detection, but that might help out against a stealthy plane too! Edited January 19, 2011 by Caesar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Viggen 516 Posted January 19, 2011 Eleven Cats left... Dare I ask how many there were when the disposal began? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rambler 1-1 9 Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Viggen... don't remind me. I may cry. Anyway, I don't like how anything that isn't stealth and new is badged as "old school", aka outdated. The F-15 is a sound design, with lots of room for improvement, and there are plenty of them around to boot. As for the Navy, with all these budget cuts and the lower demand for an interceptor, I understand why the Tomcat was taken out of service. I don't agree, but I understand. However, somebody has to decide whether the U.S is going to keep trying to upstage the east with new technology, or if they're going to try to save money. It's starting to look like they can't do both... ...that being said, I'd say that a flight of four Eagles would be enough to do away with a couple stealth fighters. There is a point where quantity of an aircraft and quality of training will defeat quality of aircraft alone. Edited January 19, 2011 by Rambler 1-1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted January 19, 2011 There's really only one thing to consider...at what range can you attack the enemy vs the range he can attack you? What range you "see" each other at is irrelevant if you can't do anything about it. The 120D is supposed to have significantly better range than the 120A/B/C did, and they're supposedly working on an even longer-range version. If the F-15 doesn't enter range of the attacking stealth plane until after that plane has already been able to fire on the F-15, what does it matter? The F-15 won't be able to hide from the attacker, between its non-stealthy powerplant faces in the middle of giant intakes and large fins, so it has to rely on being able to take them down first. If anyone here read Debt of Honor, there was a great chapter in there where F-15s and F-22s did a neat deception with the F-22s hiding amongst the 15s and then breaking off and coming around from another direction to take down the AWACS and other forces in the rear while the Eagles provided a big "here we are" diversion. Again, though, fighters don't operate in a vacuum. Sure, in the middle of the ocean the non-stealthy plane may appear equal to the stealthy one, but near enemy ground forces the nonstealth one has to worry about SAMs as well. So our F-15s are dodging SAMs AND enemy stealth fighters, while the enemy stealth fighters only have to worry about the F-15 getting too close...sounds like a recipe for disaster for the Eagle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rambler 1-1 9 Posted January 20, 2011 Jedi's right, but when and where would F-15s be engaging stealth fighters, such as the PAK FA or this new Chinese thing, over SAM-infested hostile territory? I was under the impression that if a flight of anything saw the huge dots indicating F-15s on their radar, their first choice wouldn't be to engage, especially if there are more Eagles then there are of themselves, which is totally possible for some time into the future. There hasn't been a lot in the way of head-on fighter-vs-fighter combat in a while, and I'm just saying that for the current goals of the U.S forces worldwide, maybe a bunch of new stealth fighters isn't totally necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted January 20, 2011 Well, considering the advances in SAM ranges, the Taiwan Strait might be considered "SAM-infested hostile territory" very shortly. Besides, our track record of figuring out where we will have our next conflict is pretty bad. Who in 1985 would've guessed we'd have a massive conventional war in Iraq in 6 yrs? Who in 1987 would've guessed combat in Somalia in 6 yrs? Who in 1992 would've guessed combat over the Balkans in 6 yrs? Who in 1995 would've guessed we'd be invading Afghanistan in 6 yrs? Who in 2003 would've guessed we still wouldn't have finished with neither Iraq nor Afghanistan in 6 yrs? I'm not showing decades in the future scenarios here, I'm just talking 6 yrs, the length of time many people get for car loans now! Considering planes take 2 decades to get in service, the likelihood is you'll be in and out of a conflict you never predicted between first flight and IOC! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EricJ 3,932 Posted January 27, 2011 This is much like an article about the F-22 and Super Hornet using the AESA for more kill capability. Time is moving on... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
