Just tested A-Teams ETO -do they even test their stuff before releases?

[+Stary 2,427]

What goes below could go aswell to any other A-Teams releases in the past be it WoRussia, PTO and so on

 

I mean c'mon!

 

Obvious errors in models like that odd wider fuselage after nose section on Dora, odd sinking canopies in fuselages, holes in airplanes after tails or wings shoot off (one of things I never can get over!!!) cockpits that are so lazily placed there are holes in fuselage visible (Bf-109K!!!) lights from muzzle flashes lighting bombers 300 meters away at dawn sun light* etc and so on...

 

*I guess just not-adjusted stock lighting values taken from Thirdwire gunsdata

 

Shame as this is something I was very eager to test as ETO being my favourite theatre, seems the A-Team's policy is to never learn on their mistakes. What kills me it's the scope and amount of rare planes in this pack is, and I can't stress this enough -fantastic- but the execution of this as a whole leaves much to my prophead taste.

 

Also, Veltro2K as you will be obviously reading this -ever considered making other than level 1 LODs for your models? I do realise it's tedious procedure but I get 12-16 fps attacking 12 or so Lancasters formation on a bloody 8-core rig. And your models are standing out of the others given their details and accuracy.

 

Edit: as for the low fps attacking bombers formations I'll repeat what I stated back around 2007 or so working with Baltika on his BoB conversion -it might be more of a piss-poor gunners algorithm bottleneck more than the models themselves

Edited February 23, 2015 by Stary

[+FLOGGER23 3,064]

I once asked if we could use their Viggens for Jonathan´s TSF and i got a NO as round as a pool ball, so, we shared ideas with Logan and hope to have some decent Viggens for the crowd here :D

[Gatling20 753]

On the other hand, they have a number of very good-looking cockpits in this Mod  :)

 

Seriously, though, I think this criticism is over the top and unwarranted. There are something like 170 aircraft in this mod. Some, like the Ju-88A, Do-17Z and Bf-110, are older models, but most are brand-new and highly detailed (in no particular order, check out the Spitfire Mk 14 and Mk 19, the Arado Ar-234, the Dornier Do-17P, the Me-262A, the Do-335, all of the Bf-109Es, Gs and the K, the Fw-190As, the P-38s, the P-51B and C, the P-47C and D, the Typhoon, Tempest, Defiant, and Whirlwind, plus all the exotic French, Dutch and Belgian machines like the Amiot 143 and 354, the Bloch 151 and 152, the Dewoitine D.520, the Caudron Cyclon and the Fokker G.1).

 

As far as I can tell all, or almost all, of the Veltro2k models in this Mod are SF2 types, not SF1. And that gap in the Bf-109K cockpit is easily fixed by changing the cockpit.INI file from Position=0.00,-0.882,0.690 to Position=0.00,-0.882,0.750. I did it for my install weeks ago, when this Mod was first released.

 

I am not a modder, but for my part I am not a rivet-counter, I am grateful when people do great things in their spare time, such as Stary's cockpits or this Mod, and give them to me for free.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Gatling20

[+daddyairplanes 10,243]

Sic the North Koreans on his ass!

And i dont just say that cause i got booted off his site a year and a half ago..

[Gatling20 753]

Remaining on the constructive side, the P-38 and Fw-190A cockpits in this Mod are a bit dated (I think they are by Wolf257, and they date from 2004), so if a Cockpit-Meister was looking for a project, new ones would be much appreciated :)

[+Dave 2,322]

Seriously, though, I think this criticism is over the top and unwarranted.

 

That is where you would be wrong. There is way too many errors for this not to have been tested better. This is the same thing people have been telling them for years about their mods and all they get is butt hurt and start banning people from using there models. So nothing has changed with them. While I applaud them for the work they do for their community, eburger for example puts out mods bigger than this by himself with less errors. 

[Gatling20 753]

No, this is where you would be wrong.

I can only speak for my own experience, and I'm new to this and don't know what "people have been telling them for years", but I have always found them polite and responsive when I raise issues with them. And I don't know of any Mods bigger than this one, or better put together.

Can you tell me the "way too many errors" you are talking about, I must have missed them.

[+Dave 2,322]

No, this is where you would be wrong.

I can only speak for my own experience, and I'm new to this and don't know what "people have been telling them for years", but I have always found them polite and responsive when I raise issues with them. And I don't know of any Mods bigger than this one, or better put together.

Can you tell me the "way too many errors" you are talking about, I must have missed them.

 

I will give you an example from your own post. 

 

 

Bf-109K cockpit is easily fixed by changing the cockpit.INI file from Position=0.00,-0.882,0.690 to Position=0.00,-0.882,0.750.

 

Now none of us modders are even remotely perfect however in the A Teams case this is what is typical of their mods, everyone else fixing it for them. Then you bring it up, you're banned. If you do not believe me just ask the members here at CA who said something here and even in the most politest of forms, got banned from their site. Yes you are new to this but us old heads KNOW the deal. I am glad your experience has been good with them. However if Stary says something is fucky I can almost god damn guarantee he is right on the money. 

[Gatling20 753]

Any other problems that you can identify?

I will correspond with them and get them to fix them, if I can.

[Stick 773]

No, this is where you would be wrong.

Coming from Stary who has the skill set and the vision, and the proven ability to act on these attributes its not at all unwarranted. Its about raising the bar-its about being passionate about what you do, and yet having the humility to accept when you have put out something that doesn't quite do justice to your abilities.  

 

Not all of us settle for mediocrity.

 

So touche, since you know what you what you are talking about-you must be right.

[Wrench 9,848]

I'm sure I'll get banned for saying this.....which is a pity, as ww2 modding is my MAJOR area of interest.

 

 

 

Any other problems that you can identify?

 

 

how abut using, modifying and reposting terrain, without the permission of the guy that rebuilt it, maybe?

 

there's more I could say, but I don't want to suffer the consequenses of being myself

[+JonathanRL 974]

 

There are something like 170 aircraft in this mod

TSF might not have that many aircraft but take it from me when I say that any decent modder does testing to make sure the obvious errors are spotted. That is why I only had to patch TSF 2 twice - I had already spotted the major fuckups. The number of errors Stary mention is not supposed to appear, especially not if you are more then a one-man-show.

[Gatling20 753]

Well, nobody seems to be able to identify any other actual errors in the A-Team's ETO Mod, so I won't bother PM'ing them. Mere vulgar abuse and vitriol doesn't count.

 

Have any of you actually downloaded and flown this Mod, or are you all just angry about something I don't understand?

 

As to Wrench's point about the terrain, the A-Team ETO Mod Readme is pretty clear, it says:

The original of this terrain was made for TK's earlier flight sim European Air War (EAW) by fng2k and Charles in the 1990s, and was ported to Strike Fighters by fng2k, Edward and Charles in July 2005. Upgrades to the terrain were made by Wrench in February 2006 and October 2009, by Charles in October 2010, and by Wrench again in December 2012. The tiles are by Edward (mostly), with some by Wrench and Charles.

 

I understand that fng2k, Charles and Edward are all part of the A-Team, so I don't understand the attitude, or the problem.

[+Stary 2,427]

Gatling20,

 

I won't say you're wrong, I openly admitted in my OP the scope of the mod and planeset is fantastic BUT there is difference between mediocre mods, ok mods and legendary mods. The diffference is amount of time spend to fix own errors and innacuracies. And I do not mean the things that require a bit of skills or even lots of skills like planes or cockpits -I am refering to things you can fix yourself like the forementioned 109K cockpit position. All you need it the will and notepad to do so. Same with other models like A-20 I just tested -old but still very accurate Beaufighter cockpit (showing it's age as far as the resolution of mesh goes but I CAN live with that for sure!) that has been so placed I can see the culled parts of fuselage all around me:

 

exhibit A: show from cockpit =TRUE in action

if that doesn't kill the immersion for you, you're dead inside

 

then you have the ground units that haven't been updated or even retextured since the original Solomons campaign/mod from 2006 like desert flak guns etc. Yes once I sat in the gunner position of 88 in one museum so I want nice flak from a team specifically focused on WW2 era!

 

As for cockpits, is it that hard to at least do a 5 minute-worth repaint of Bf-109E to say make it more plausible Gustav one? Yeah see I have a thing for 109's. Also strange given they I think still cooperate or at least cooperated with Kessel in the past so at this point should have access to the original cockpits most of which are again about 10, 8 years old.

 

The Wrench's terrain being used without permission is another thing that hurts the bigger picture. One of the holy rules here in a freeware mods circle is -if a mod creator doesn't want you to use his mod without asking, DON'T

 

Also yes, after joining in 2005 here I was initially the prophead but after the dramas of late 2007 or so I decided to focus on other times as WW2 stuff became a mess due to Capun's division of the WW2 community (on those silent with access and those openly criticizing who get banned. I'll skip over the fact that registering at A-Teams site required you to post your CombatAce credetials so they could run background check on you. A bit paranoid, don't you think?) Not good as this community would work better with people cooperating to make better mods, not going berserk any time obvious errors are pointed out which sadly is common case with Capun.

When I get banned for posting the above, Capuns is going to find himself in lots of trouble.

 

Hint: ALL his mods use some of my work and so he'd better have lots of free time to remove my content from his packages and I know all my content that is there

Also Gatling the terrain DO USE parts of my tiles etc apart from Wrench work

[+JonathanRL 974]

 

The Wrench's terrain being used without permission is another thing that hurts the bigger picture. One of the holy rules here in a freeware mods circle is -if a mod creator doesn't want you to use his mod without asking, DON'T

I find this really annoying since he is very adamant about me not using the A-Team Viggens. The same Viggens that my friends from CA have altered so much that the only thing left done by A-Team is the LOD Conversion. Hell, even the original 3D model is not theirs and I even have permission from the original author to use.

 

Is it too much of me to ask that if we show them that kind of respect that they return the favour and not do stuff to Wrench work that he has not approved of?

[+Stary 2,427]

dunno ma, I don't want some sites war... but hell, these flames are burning for years

[Wrench 9,848]

G20: seriously? don't see the problem?

I take it you haven't read MY read me for the 2012 update (or any of my terrains):

 

 

This is a rebuild of the WW2 EAW Europe map. It has extensive retargeting and retiling (read: new tiles created, albeit in the original "BN series")  In essence, approximatley 98.6% of the terrain and targeting has been revised in some fashion.

 

now, I must admit I did make a typographical error in the legal statement. It says

 

 

This Mod Pak is freeware; it CAN be distrubuted if the original readmes and all other pieces of the package remain intact

when it should say CANNOT be distributed even if (etc)

 

But, on the next lines, clearly states my position. With a link back to the "conditional usage" post in the Freeware thread

 

 

 However, it CANNOT be posted on any other site than my own (which is closed!) and CombatAce.
Any persons wishing to make further modfications, =MUST= first obtain permission from me, as stated in the CombatAce Freeware Mods thread:

http://combatace.com/topic/26131-freeware-licensing/page__view__findpost__p__545949

 

as to the terrain itself, trust me; I know my own work when I see it. That goes for skins and decals, too.

 

btw, fng2k hasn't been part of the community for at LEAST 6 year, or more!

[+Stary 2,427]

also Gatling something you better understand before further discussion -as we become experienced modders and modellers in particular we have our rising standards so we do not release mods we find unfinished or fucky

 

I'll give you an example -3 years ago /edit: January of 2012 to be precise/ I made new ZU-23 platform together with a truck-mounted variant:

 

 

BUT I never released the basically finished unit (with custom fire muzzle effect and tweaked data) -because one Finnish guy here that operated those in army pointed out several small errors regarding ie. the gunsight mounting common user wouldn't spot. Would be quite easy to remodel etc if he gave me some better schematics than I have had at that point. It's not that older Eastern block equipment blueprints are so easily available online as Western counterparts if you get me.

 

So one day I might finish this mod, right now I do not as I -again- see it as fucky or incomplete with several small errors present. Same with a pack of Ural trucks I made at that period, lack destroyed models and are a bit low poly for current standards so I have them at backburner "just in case"

 

What is my pointI am sure lots of guys here did experienced such case in the past where they "put to sleep" a mod due to small errors or lack of data to mke it "right"

 

See where I am going with this?

 

Also, you seem to be quite odddly defensive of A-Team and Capun... Ceasar is that you hiding there?

Edited February 24, 2015 by Stary

[+Menrva 4,200]

Wrench, I don't know if you remember, but long time ago I asked you if I could rework your Iran/Iraq terrain (which is now on hold) and you gave me permission, after all I asked you first if I could modify it.  I really don't understand why A-Team used your stuff without asking for permission, although you made that little mistake in the ReadMe file, your position about your terrain mods is very clear in the CombatACE freeware thread.

 

Like Stary, I don't want to see a war between sites, but Wrench could ask for the removal of that terrain from their package (they could use an old one without Wrench's great efforts and updates).  We have many eburger's mods that support A-Team planes but to have them you have to download them at their site.  If there is a site that is respectful of rules that is CombatACE.

[+Dave 2,322]

The war has existed for years now. However this was not the point of the thread. It was about play testing a mod more thoroughly before releasing it. QCing the models before releasing it.  With a mod of this size yes there is bound to be errors. It happens. However with the errors that Stary has pointed out alone they should be addressed before being released if you are the one in control of making said aircraft. I have learned in my almost 13 years in this sim that being in a hurry to get a mod out leads to errors. I am sure the A Team were excited to get it out and that sometimes clouds any modders judgement. I am guilty of it myself. It's a huge mod and congrats to them on this accomplishment. 

[+Stary 2,427]

of course! Do I have to repeat myself for the third time here? No? Good.

 

What Dave says, the initial topic of this thread was the lack of more in-depth testing of this mod, as the error are quite obvious -took me like 5 minutes to spot several.

Also I am aware most WILL be fixed or CAN be fixed by us the end-users so to say, however we can and we will expect more from such comprehensive installations!

 

At least I will, so be prepared for me still ranting here ad infinitum in the future!

 

(Thought Kevin's terrain matter is an ugly one)

[Spinners 15,986]

I've downloaded it but not yet installed it - I'll get around to it in time but I have had a little play with some of the aircraft in 'single mission' mode, worth doing that just for Charles' superb skins.

 

What I will say is that it's a big project with a huge planeset and that they have a support topic that seems to be devoid of any 'attitude' in their response to the glitches that are always going to get through.

[+Dave 2,322]

I've downloaded it but not yet installed it - I'll get around to it in time but I have had a little play with some of the aircraft in 'single mission' mode, worth doing that just for Charles' superb skins.

 

What I will say is that it's a big project with a huge planeset and that they have a support topic that seems to be devoid of any 'attitude' in their response to the glitches that are always going to get through.

 

 

That is a step in the right direction then. I have no love for Charles but I will say this I was using his stuff in the EAW days. He has got good skinning skills. 

[Gatling20 753]

Well said Dave. I for one am enjoying this Mod, the aircraft set and campaigns are great, but it's a free country, and people can disagree if they want to.

As Column5 used to say: "Don't like it, don't download it or use it" or something like that.

[+Stary 2,427]

As Column5 used to say: "Don't like it, don't download it or use it" or something like that.

 

whatever, Crusader of The Holy A-Team Cause ok that wasn't nice

 

it's just the models and skins are very good in general and I can't skip over obvious irritating errors that have more to do with lack of that extra bit of attention -but I am pretty sure they will fix most of that so time to wait for fixes again

Edited February 24, 2015 by Stary