Question about F-4 loadouts

[malibu43]

I'm modifying all my F-4 loadouts in WOE and WOV, and have a couple questions:

 

1. When in Vietnam did F-4's start regularly carrying ECM pods (if at all)?

 

2. Did they carry AIM-9's if they also had a TER of MK82's? It seems like the AIM-9's would be kinda close to the bombs is you fired one.

 

I think I'll add teh ECM pod to the loadout for my F-4E's in WOE, since they're used in a 1979 campaign and I would assume if they were used in a conflict at that point, they would have had ECM pods. WOV, I'm not sure though. I know they were around in the late sixties, but I don't know at what point they would have become part of a standard loadout.

 

Thanks!

 

*edit* - what about Israeli F-4's? Did they regularly carry ECM pods?

Edited May 22, 2009 by malibu43

[zmatt]

 

As for the sidewinders I'm not sure.

Edited May 22, 2009 by zmatt

[malibu43]

...

 

As for the sidewinders I'm not sure.

 

Thanks, but do you know when that picture's from? I know they could and did carry them, I'm just not sure when it became "the norm".

[+331Killerbee]

The Answer to Question to #2 is YES. They did use AIM-9's in conjunction with TER's. Being that the Mission would be Strike-CAS First, The AIM-9's were for Defence. The TER's would be Jettisoned Off in A2A ACM. Marine F-4's would have MA-2A's at the Sidwinder Stations that are twin Zuni Pods with a TER carrying two Mk77 with them durning CAS Operations......Droping the Napalm First, then shooting the Willie Pete Zuni's to be sure the Napalm was all lit up......

[+331Killerbee]

BTW, Robin Olds made the use of ALQ's....From then on, USAF Phantoms used them alot because of them being so successful...... Operation Bolo..."BlackMan and Robin"

Edited May 22, 2009 by 331Killerbee

[+331Killerbee]

Here's a typical Marine Phantom CAS Loadout. Centerline Mk4 Gun Pod. MA-2A Zuni Pods with Mk 77's on the TERs...

 

[malibu43]

Thanks KB!

[+331Killerbee]

As for the Israeli Equipment, Their early ECM Equipment started showing up just after receiving Their "E's" from the U.S.

 

It was part of the Package Deal with Isreal. They wanted the "E" and the Equipment to go along with it......As far as Dates, I'd have to do some Reasearch on specific Dates.......

[+331Killerbee]

Think on it like this.....The Phantom was America's first real Multi-Role Fighter...It was placed in this Role by default. The "Standard" Loadout consisted of 4 AIM-7's and 4 AIM-9's since the first day of Production. Just about every piece of Ordnance has been hung off them since. The "Standard" Loudout was always retained in the Early Days because the Phantom was without a Internal Gun. So the Missiles were it's only defencive Weapons. When the "E" came along with it's Gun, The Air Force still loaded Sidewinders to it for the added Firepower.......

[+331Killerbee]

The IDF started using their ALQ's from 1969 to 1976 with the delivery of the F-4E's through the "Peace Echo" Program.

[+sony tuckson]

as for the pic, it's a G model, which didn't appear during the VietNam war era, and as it had a very specific mission (SEAD), its loadout can't be considered "standard", although the Standard (AGM 78) was part of its loadout....;)

[Major Bloodnok]

If you want the MA-2A Zunis plus bombs loadout, in the F-4B data ini change the two sidewinder sections to this:

 

[sidewinderStation3]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=12

StationGroupID=6

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-1.77,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,-90.0

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.5

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=USN

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sidewinderStation4]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=13

StationGroupID=6

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=1.77,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,90.0

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.5

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=USN

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

As you see from the screenshot they are horizontal not vertical. Does anybody have a better solution?

[+hgbn]

If you want the MA-2A Zunis plus bombs loadout, in the F-4B data ini change the two sidewinder sections to this:

 

[sidewinderStation3]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=12

StationGroupID=6

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-1.77,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,-90.0 <------------you can rotate the weapons here. Try 00.0 instead of -90

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.5

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=USN

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[sidewinderStation4]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=13

StationGroupID=6

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=1.77,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,90.0 <------------you can rotate the weapons here. try 180.0 instead of 90.0

LoadLimit=120

DiameterLimit=0.5

AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,RP

AttachmentType=USN

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

As you see from the screenshot they are horizontal not vertical. Does anybody have a better solution?

Edited May 22, 2009 by hgbn

[+Sundowner]

SF2V has the dual zunis as part of the F-4B loadout "out the box".....I also have the correct settings for them in the SF1 series......somewhere.

[+Wrench]

flipping the attachment angles on the existing winder stations might not be such a good idea...even though the AIM-9s are cylinders, it may change where the fins sit, in relation to the TER, wings and other items (birds, bugs, etc)

 

Best way would be to duplicate those stations, rename, and add the new sytems to the 'effected' wings, and change the attachment angle. WHICH number to change I can't renember --- try the last one first. Some experimentation will be required. I KNOW for a fact, with judicious tweeking of the numbers, you flip things 180 in any direction.

 

Also, don't forget to add them to the loadout ini, and make the Sidewinder stations either disappeared, or have a load of 0.

 

by duplictae the station, I mean copy/past the existing, and renumber but keeping the same GroupID #

Something like this:

 

[RPStation1]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=17

StationGroupID=2

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-2.32,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,90.0 <--change the 90 to 180??? experiment!

LoadLimit=90.72

AllowedWeaponClass=RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USAF

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[RPStation2]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=18

StationGroupID=2

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=2.32,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,-90.0

LoadLimit=90.72

AllowedWeaponClass=RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USAF

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[RPStation3]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=19

StationGroupID=2

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=-1.77,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,-90.0

LoadLimit=90.72

AllowedWeaponClass=RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USAF

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

[RPStation4]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=20

StationGroupID=2

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=1.77,2.59,-1.20

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,90.0

LoadLimit=90.72

AllowedWeaponClass=RP

AttachmentType=NATO,USAF

ModelNodeName=

PylonMass=

LaunchRailNodeName=

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

note: i've turned the brackets backwards, so the Board software don't have a cow or 3. Don't forget to turn them back around when adding to the data ini

 

the SystemName[xxx]= of couse would have to match

 

for the rightwing

 

SystemName]013[=RPStation2

SystemName]014[=RPStation4

 

left wing:

 

SystemName]013[=RPStation1

SystemName]014[=RPStation3

 

the loadout ini would need editing to something like this:

 

[Attack]

Loadout[03].WeaponType=CBU-24B

Loadout[03].Quantity=3

Loadout[03].RackType=TER

Loadout[04].WeaponType=CBU-24B

Loadout[04].Quantity=3

Loadout[04].RackType=TER

Loadout[06].WeaponType=AIM-7E-2

Loadout[06].Quantity=1

Loadout[07].WeaponType=QRC-160 <--ecm pod added here see below

Loadout[07].Quantity=1

Loadout[08].WeaponType=AIM-7E-2

Loadout[08].Quantity=1

Loadout[09].WeaponType=AIM-7E-2

Loadout[09].Quantity=1

Loadout[16].WeaponType=TANK600_F4

Loadout[16].Quantity=1

Loadout[17].WeaponType=MA-2A

Loadout[17].Quantity=1

Loadout[18].WeaponType=MA-2A

Loadout[18].Quantity=1

Loadout[19].WeaponType=MA-2A

Loadout[19].Quantity=1

Loadout[20].WeaponType=MA-2A

Loadout[20].Quantity=1

 

you'll also need to "regroup" the Sparrow stations, if you want to put the jammer pod in the left forward bay. Change the GroupID on SparrowStation1 to 5, leaving SparrowStation2 as Group 4

 

It's pretty easy; the hardest part is figuring out the attachment angle for a verticle mountd dual Zuni launcher

 

wrench

kevin stein

 

btw: the credit goes to TMF for the 'duplicate' station trick

[+ST0RM]

Here are links to some loadout pics:

 

Da Nang F-4B '66

 

Rockets on TER

 

And one of an overall ramp shot:

Flightline pic

 

I can't find the thread on loading the rocket pods on a TER, like the USMC Phantoms.

 

Great thread guys. Customizing the loadouts for each service/mission is awesome. In game, it's quite impressive.

 

-S

[+Wrench]

Storm, you mean like in the screenies below....

 

the 2 LAU-3s are in the F-4N upgrade,

and the other is my "What If..." Phantom FGR.3"

 

both available here (with thanks to Ant for the triple rocket pod goodies)

 

I'm sure that triple-SNEB set up could be adapted/modifed for USN/USMC usage....

 

wrench

kevin stein

[+ST0RM]

Thanks Kevin. My search for TER and rockets kept coming up blank.

 

I want my Da Nang Phantoms to have the triple LAU on a TER.

 

-Jeff

[+Dave]

Guys, just carry a nuke....Sheesh, no need for all that extra weight.

[mppd]

Sorry I missed this thread yesterday. KB is right, the first use of the ECM pod by F-4s was for the 02 January 1967 Bolo mig-bagging mission led by Robin Olds and Chappie James. For that mission, the birds flying as if they were strikers were wired to carry an QRC-160/ALQ-71 on the outboard pylon on one side, and a 370 gal fuel tank on the other side (talk about your basic asymmetrical loadout - better have your trim keys programmed). The only real photos I have seen of this are from video shot as the birds returned to Ubon on the Dogfights series on the History Channel (now on DVD). Also early use of tailcodes seen here.

 

After this, the inboard pylons were modified to carry a pod, but doing so limited the bird's load carrying ability - I have seen photos of the first F-4Ds at Ubon configured this way - so by mid to later 1967 the adapter for the fwd AIM-7 wells for an ECM pod was developed. This adapter has not been modeled in the simulation as its sort of buried and not very visible with the pod in place anyway.

 

I recently purchased an F-4 weapons delivery manual that I have not yet looked at, but I believe that it will say that the airplanes prior to 1972 had to jettison ordnance off of the TER on the inboard pylon to safely launch the AIM-9s. A three-inch spacer was then added to the rail which provided additional clearance to allow the Sidewinders to be fired with weps on the TER (although one would think that the heavy stuff would be jettisoned anyway if you started tangling with the more maneuverable migs).

 

Mike D.

[+MigBuster]

Guys, just carry a nuke....Sheesh, no need for all that extra weight.

 

Naah - far too easy!

[+MigBuster]

Yes what mppd said + they also used versions of the ALQ-101 and others of that era like the ALQ-87 - in fact there is an early ECM pod pack somewhere for download - which includes different versions of each pod also.

 

The electronic war in Vietnam developed fairly quickly - ECM pods would be used - then the NVA SAM operators found a way to beat the jamming - so newer pods were used, then the NV would beat it again using other techniques such as "Home On Jamming" - and the next pods would beat that etc etc.

 

 

I noticed in SF2V TK has renamed the QRC-160-1 which was the original naming convention for the ALQ-71 (I think) and has put in the ALQ-101 by default - and has even put default ECM loadouts on most of the jets now - although on the F-4 this is always the inboard wing pilots. Where as a single pod in a forward sparrow bay was more common later in the war on the real jets from what i can see.

Still saved me a bit of work - had to change the whole lot in WOV

[+Crusader]

USAF never loaded TERs etc and Sidewinder at the same time on the inboard stations - we had a thread on that on the old C5 forum and were not able to find a single picture with such a configuration ( of an operational aircraft - static displays etc doesnt count )

USAF didnt have the spacers for the AIM-9 rails ( they got them, if at all, only sometime in the late 70's or 80's )

 

USN/USMC Phantoms were different, they used other inboard pylons ( only USAF F-4C had the same but without the spacers ) and adapters .. all kinds of combinations of TER w Bombs, Rocket pods and Sidewinders were used operational.

USN/USMC Phantom were wired for a gunpod on the centerline only - one USMC squadron (I think it was VMFA-122 ) changed that and rewired their aircraft for gunpods on the outboard stations too.. but that was a "special"

 

The IDF didnt have spacers early on too, but they came up with a work around - they loaded only 2 bombs in a slant layout on the TER ( botttom and one side station ) which gave space for one Sidewinder

Later they added spacers, then special wide spacers for Python 3, and a special pylon for AIM-9/Python 3 in the forward right sparrow well.

[+Piecemeal]

Another alternative to Sidewinder/TER loadout methods:

 

[malibu43]

Thanks guys. I knew I could count on the resident Phantom Phanatics to get me more info than I could possibly need!