SF2: Tomcat Speculation

[+Dave 2,322]

But not entirely. I would love to go SF2 but need features of the old game that have been either deleted for reasons that hurt me, or replaced by "new" features that I cannot tolerate at all until I can find a fix. I take these changes as a business descision by TK.

 

What features are that?

[+streakeagle 871]

TK can't make everyone happy. He counts on moddability to get people to buy at least one of the games, since you can taylor any one of the sims to suit your needs. Of course, ever since the original release each patch has fixed some things and broken others. I have many fond memories of SFP1 SP2a. It had few bugs, AI was good in a dogfight (think Korea mod), multiplayer mostly worked, and my F-4B flight model departed almost exactly as it should. But WoV brought carriers and naval aircraft, WoE brought clouds and advanced avionics, WoI fixed the AI and ECM problems of WoV and WoE, SF2 made everything look better and improved frame rates for DX10 cards. If SF2 had retained the basic multiplayer of SFP1, I would have almost nothing to complain about. However, since I am not even trying to make time for multiplayer at the moment, SF2 pathced to the latest revision is easily my favorite version.

 

Will the F-14 really bring in a lot of new blood? I don't know. The F-14 already exists in mod form and I can't imagine the new game improving much other than cockpit/avionics details (maybe multi target tracking?). Will Tomcat fans that haven't already bought some version of this sim to fly the mod F-14 suddenly decide to buy it for a stock F-14? The F-14 is probably the most popular aircraft that is missing from this sim's time frame. If it doesn't help TK get back in business, what will? Sooner or later TK will have to deal with modern aircraft. A decent F/A-18, F-22, and/or F-35 added to this game would probably draw a lot more sales than anything like the last expansion pack. I guess I am weird, because I would much rather see TK do the 1950s to 1970s aircraft than the modern types. I personally think the USSR aircraft should start being added as flyables. They are almost as well documented as the US aircraft as I have been able to get almost any info I want or need on the MiG-21, MiG-23, and MiG-29 (flight manuals, radar operaion guides, cockpit layouts, etc.). Korea would be a big deal, even if it started with only an F-86F and a MiG-15bis. It will be interesting to see where he goes next. As long as he keeps adding high quality flyables from the 50s/60s/70s at a decent rate I will be happy with whatever he decides to do.

[+Dave 2,322]

I wasnt big in to the 1st series MP at all but I do wish it had been retained in SF2 as I know a lot of you guys were really into it. I do feel for you all in that regard. However other than MP there is no reason to cling to the 1st series at all. SF2 is superior in every way. From ease of adding mods, to features under the hood. There really is no excuse not to upgrade other than a person's financial situation which is perfectly understandable. The rest of you are just being stubborn.

[+streakeagle 871]

There were other features lost in translation. Lexx is big into environmental mods and can no longer get the realistic results he wants in the SF2 implementation. TK changed the game in a way that cannot be fixed by modding. I also have several issues with broken features in player-designed single missions. There are things I can do in the old series to model historical situations properly that I cannot do in SF2. Those still using WinXP and/or DX9 may benefit by staying with the old series as well. Those blessed with the latest hardware/Windows and happy with random single missions will be the happiest with SF2. Those with older hardware/Windows or multiplayer or mission editing types may find SFP1/WoX series more rewarding. There is also the issue of payware. If you have Razbam's stuff, it can be made to work in SF2, but will have a few issues (primarily shadows). YAP1/2, being built on custom missions and having helicopters definitely has problems working in SF2.

 

For the most part, any SFP1/WoX era installs on my hard drive are there so I can extract files that are needed to support stuff I want in SF2. I recently re-installed SF2 without any mods, so the only first gen install I have right now is YAP2, which I never play.

 

I can't wait to see what the F-14 sim brings to the SF2 series. How will TK implement aerodynamics of the VG wing in the data.ini file? Will multitarget tracking be added? What is the new terrain going to be like? What other flyables/non-flyables will be added? Will any aircraft carriers and warships will be added? Will there be any surprise revisions to the game engine? What is going to be in the other expansion packs? This is going to be an interesting year for Third Wire sims. I hope the Tomcat sim makes a Xmas release (or earlier).

[column5 63]

The F-14 already exists in mod form and I can't imagine the new game improving much other than cockpit/avionics details (maybe multi target tracking?).

 

The original TMF Tomcat was a good release 5-6 years ago, but it can't compete with the current state of the art from either ThirdWire or the community. The new version coming out very soon will remedy that. I'm torn because I don't want anyone to skip SF2T, but at the same time all of us in TMF want to make sure as many of the projects Oli worked as possible get released.

 

With the exception of the multi-target tracking and flight model enhancements to better simulate VG, all of the improvements I can think of that would be desirable for a Tomcat sim involve the AI, which TK has stated will not be getting any major changes. It will be interesting to see what transpires as TK has always provided interesting tweaks and additions with each new release.

[+streakeagle 871]

I don't actually expect any flight model enhancements to support V-G. Probably an animation link based on Mach for the visual position, while any aerodynamic effects will probably be hard-coded into the standard tables. But, I am still curious to see what he decides to do. My statement took into account the new TMF F-14. Surely TK will includde some feature to reward those who choose to get the new Tomcat sim despite the TMF release. Perhaps the new terrain will be the reason the buy this sim for those that are happy with the free mod F-14s? Only 6 months to go.

 

Given the F-4E was produced with its trademark shark mouth, will the F-14A get a proper VF-84 Jolly Rogers skin rather than some generic decals? Maybe a shiny new Nimitz class to land on?

Edited June 19, 2010 by streakeagle

[eraser_tr 29]

Open modability has really hurt TK's potential sales. Just from the various support forums I have seen many posts where the poster admits that they have just one or two versions of the game and rely on free downloads to fill in the rest of their needs.

 

If it wasn't for open moddability, I'd have completely ignored the series. It was only after canvassing the mod communities to see what was already made and in the works did I go out and buy the original WOV.

[+Stary 2,427]

So many valid point here.

 

I wouldn't be here if not the moddability and the community -I had WoV on shelf for some four months, not touching it, until I discovered Column5's site and CombatAce. Then the craziness started

Generally in flight sims the times are -if you don't make your sim moddable, you're lost. Must be the reason Oleg Maddox decided to open for modders slowly incoming (and finally taking shape) Storm of War. And closed Rise of Flight is loosing it big time for me.

 

I perfectly understand that financial situation can prevent one from buying the titles, but we're talking 20$ per title here.

 

Back on topic -frankly, I wouldn't expect ultra-fidelity breakthrough new features from Tomcat title regarding avionics or FM, but I know there will be many new little things under the hood. Like always. You know, it's TK.

 

Not to mention new terrain engine, the weakest, stinking point of the series for years. You do remember how long we were flying without clouds? Until mega-update patch (and WoE) in 2006. That's four years for the veterans here.

[Stratos 3,192]

I'm not a Tomcat fan in any way, but I will purchase the game, hope to see a new terrain and the hability to start single missions on carriers added to the series

[viperBAT32 2]

i tend to agree with Dave, on the fact that SF2 is superior in every way. i simply cannot believe that i have paid so little for so much in both series. it is very refreshing considering most genre's out there give you short, non-moddable games that cost a fortune. i myself would have paid twice TK's asking price simply because of the tweeking and add-ons that are available here and other great sites. at worst i'm very pleased with both series and have endless possibilities.thanks TK and thanks to all who have contributed anything to the series.

btw, i cannot wait for the 'Cat! when its up, i'm buying!

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

usafmtl::

What features are that?

The feature I like most is the half hemisphere sky glow in the direction of the rising/setting SF sun. That was very tweakable to get results far beyond the stock game. TK did an amazing job with that. In Patch 2008, and SF2+, this was replaced by the blood red camera lens glare that washes out terrain and planes. I can't tolerate this, at all. You can take this out but it leaves a barren sky. TK went for the "camera" look. I always assume we look through the eyes of air crew, not cameras.

 

this...in the twilight after sunset, the smooth transition from blue to yellow closer to the horizon near the SF sun.

 

 

 

But that's not enough to keep me from upgrading. I loved the new high altitude sky darkening that TK sneaked into Patch 2008 and pleasantly surprised everybody, but I found my own method of varying sky colour with altitude. Even in olde SF 2006, I can have light blue at sea level, Oxcart blue at 80k feet, and various shades in between. I like TK's [HighAlt] method better, but my own way is close enough so this feature no longer pulls me toward upgrading.

 

Even so, I was almost ready to finally upgrade to SF 2008 and then SF2 (I could use the Loft feature) until streak let out about the AI visual look angles. TK deleted this feature at the request of some players looking for more "challenging" dogfights. I was hoping to use them in my project for my own purporses -- tweaking them for day or night interception including searchlight guided intercepts (Wild Sau, used in Korea) among other things. Why TK couldn't make this an option in a config file I don't know. That's another reason for me to live in the past.

 

In Patch 2008, TK let out RHM attack for AI controlled aircraft -- NOT an airborne radar attack. The feature only works if the aircraft is armed with a radar guided missile. So, this new feature can't be used to let AI fly guns-only radar attack (F3D Skyknight ) or radar guided infrared missile attack (MiG-21PF + atoll). I figured out a workaround involving a "fake" radar guided missile with minimum range near visual range of target, but it would work best in combination with tweaking AI visual look angles. But as noted above, this feature was deleted.

 

Still, if TK brought some of these features back as options, or created new features that I need, such as the map wide combat results recorder, I'll bite. Man I really REALLY like the RHM attack feature's ability to set 0 to 360 degree coverage for simulating long range GCI -- the angle could be reduced to very small angles, including 0, to simulate the crippling of PVO ground radar stations in a campaign. Man just thinking about this makes me want to upgrade. Thanks alot Dave. Loft too. I know about the ECM settings which are really cool. But, I assume those are for Player plane only. If not, that's another thing that could get me to upgrade, dam the environmentsystem.ini But...I can't use ECM in any of the SF games new or old, because because breaking lock causes immediate missile *full* warhead self destruct, just off the pylon or SAM launcher. If there's a nuc warhead involved, that full destruct takes out the entire SAM launcher of aircraft flight. So I don't use ECM. Chaff works though, as the missile gets close to the target before being affected, and then flies well beyond before self destruct.

 

Anyways, its a fun challenge molding TK's sim however he does it. He got mad at me for not upgrading, but like I said, its his business decision so that way there should be no hard feelings. TK is still the best. Like he told us; there are enough sims that do post-modern all digital superHUDjets and WW2 props, and there are enough things to do in between to keep him busy for many years ahead. So TK is staying Cold War. Ya gotta love him for that alone.

[Fubar512 1,350]

 

 

In Patch 2008, TK let out RHM attack for AI controlled aircraft -- NOT an airborne radar attack. The feature only works if the aircraft is armed with a radar guided missile. So, this new feature can't be used to let AI fly guns-only radar attack (F3D Skyknight ) or radar guided infrared missile attack (MiG-21PF + atoll).

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but you are quite mistaken, Lex. In SF2, AI MiG-21s use their radar sets to aquire airborne targets and set up IRM & gun attacks, as do '17PFs (which are armed only with guns so far in the series).

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Indeed tell us more. Maybe that changed between SF Patch 2008 and SF2. Thanks. That could be a game changer for me.

 

Does the new ECM spectrum feature apply only to Player plane for use on the player's RWR, or does it somehow effect AI aircraft behavior as well?

 

The lack of documentation is a big problem for today's TheSims developers. I should poast the Patch readme for Master Of Orion I from 1994. It gave full details of all game changes, to the tiniest detail if a player would observe any difference in how the software functioned in game, It was several pages in the 55 line VGA mode, including full description of numerous AI behavior changes.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

they are low priced ~> https://store.thirdwire.com/store.htm

 

Okay I might have to try one or two of these out. SF2V and/or SF2E. I like how TK brought back the StrikeFighters name. I never liked the "Wings Over" naming theme.

[+streakeagle 871]

The combo package last Christmas was the ultimate deal. I had already purchased all of them, so it didn't help me out, but for those who didn't have any SF2 sims yet, it was great. Hopefully, TK offers something similar to it again this Christmas to draw in more newcomers and old SF2 holdouts.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Indeed tell us more. Maybe that changed between SF Patch 2008 and SF2. Thanks. That could be a game changer for me.

 

Does the new ECM spectrum feature apply only to Player plane for use on the player's RWR, or does it somehow effect AI aircraft behavior as well?

 

The lack of documentation is a big problem for today's TheSims developers. I should poast the Patch readme for Master Of Orion I from 1994. It gave full details of all game changes, to the tiniest detail if a player would observe any difference in how the software functioned in game, It was several pages in the 55 line VGA mode, including full description of numerous AI behavior changes.

 

 

Since I cannot become an "AI", how could I answer this?

 

I would assume that the same detection principles apply to all models, and that the same detection threshold is enforced for all models of the same type. I could post a video from a scripted mission, showing Atoll-armed MiG-21PFs switching modes from search to track on an F-4J's vector display, if you want me to.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

No, what I need is a KMD/LMD created test "mission" with, say, a loaded AI F-4 pointed toward an enemy AI aircraft at well beyond the MaxVisibleDistance set for the enemy target. No Player plane.

 

I need to do this myself: Today I delivered a 12lb jar of Wildflower honey to a friend for her daughter's birthday. I dropped her jar on concrete, glass BUSTED, so I gave her my 12lb jar of Gallberry. The jars were 20 FRNS. That could have been a jar of Thudwire SF2.

:good:

 

 

I was thinking today, and I suspect that in your SF2, you are seeing the normal SF visual range engagement, where radar equipped aircraft "use" radar, but only inside the target's MaxVisibleDistance range...ie...within visual range. The MiG-21Pf's radar is comparable to visual ranges. That early Fishbed version was made for night I suppose, where even the short ranged radar could vastly exceed visual range.

 

 

In my SF1 2008 KMD tests, I set F-4E head on against MiG-19....

 

Starting distance about 50km.

MiG-19 data.ini had visual detection range about 15km

I set F-4 radar detection range at maybe 60km.

 

The F-4 entered afterburner immediately and the huddata text switched from WAYPOINT to RHM Attack.

 

I set starting distance between the two aircraft to 100km in KMD. F-4 would fly WAYPOINT until within radar detect range -- 60km -- then switch to RHM ATTACK.

 

I loaded the F-4 with only AIM-9s (plus guns) and the F-4 would comfortably fly WAYPOINT until closing to MiG-19 MaxVisibleDistance, and only then would enter afterburner and attack (forgot which weapon).

 

I *think* I did try other orientations, so the front or rear aspect of the Sparrows or Sidewinders are not an issue. Even if they are, the F-4 should go afterburner and the hud text should display some type of engagement/pursuit method. Its been a while since I did the SF1 2008 tests.

 

Thanks anyways. If you'd like to try it, go for it. I should get a jar of SF2 and do it here.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Lex, that is not what you initially asked. And I quote:

 

"In Patch 2008, TK let out RHM attack for AI controlled aircraft -- NOT an airborne radar attack. The feature only works if the aircraft is armed with a radar guided missile. So, this new feature can't be used to let AI fly guns-only radar attack (F3D Skyknight ) or radar guided infrared missile attack (MiG-21PF + atoll). I figured out a workaround involving a "fake" radar guided missile with minimum range near visual range of target, but it would work best in combination with tweaking AI visual look angles. But as noted above, this feature was deleted."

 

What are you, a politician now?

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

I didn't ask a question in that quote. You may have misread me or, more likely, I miswrote you.

 

--

 

SF Patch 2008 introduced a new AI engagement mode allowing a radar and radar guided missile equipped AI aircraft to switch from normal following waypoints to RHM Attack if an enemy aircraft is within the radar's defined range and within the radar's defined forward detection cone. If I recall, these variables are in the DATA.ini under detectsystem.

 

This AI engagement feature takes effect even if the radar's defined range is greater than MaxVisibleDistance defined for the enemy aircraft, thus allowing AI to conduct BVR engagements without us needing to pump up the visual engagement variable MaxVisibleDistance.

 

However, this feature works only if radar guided missiles are carried, or it did so with SF1 Patch 2008. This does not work if there are no radar guided missiles loaded. The two examples you offered, radar equipped MiG-21s with Atolls, and MiG-17PF with guns, have radars that should not differ as much from a target's visual detection range MaxVisibleDistance, hence that might be causing some confustsion here.

 

 

Becoming a politician? No. But I did play StrikeFighters last night.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Why not start an In Memoriam thread at TK's with a list of all the features that used to work but got broken?

[Icarus999 70]

Why not start an In Memoriam thread at TK's with a list of all the features that used to work but got broken?

 

Got a feeling that might piss him off if its not done tactfully. Sure would like to see a lot of things fixed though.

 

(off topic) Maybe lexx should run for office, from looking at his signature it sounds like he "gets it ' where most of our politicians either don't get it or are paid not to get it

[Gr.Viper 131]

We could try to list them here then to get the picture. It'll be more than half a dozen if we incude things that never worked despite being "incuded" (like chute or "need help" call).

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Why not start an In Memoriam thread at TK's with a list of all the features that used to work but got broken?

This is a great new feature starting in SF1 Patch 2008: AI attacking BVR without us changing target MaxVisibleDistance. If its been changed so that its even better, it would help TK's customers to know. I have a hunch it hasn't changed (hopefully it has).

[+allenjb42 4,234]

My take on the next few releases, for what it's worth;

 

SF2: Tomcat - From everything TK's said, I think this going to be GIUK or North Cape scenarios, like Microprose F-14 Fleet Defender back in the day. The F-14A will replace the F-4J on the USN's decks and he gets to re-use the A6 & A-7 (maybe with an A-6 cockpit). NATO planes could be re-used from SF2:E and he can add skins for Norwegian F-104s ( and maybe F-16s too). For the opposition maybe we will see a MiG 25, Bear and\or Backfire and some Sov warships (including Kiev and possibly a Yak 38 too?). It may well be easier for him to do Iran\Iraq (he has most of the other aircraft already available, except the F-5, so would only need skins and a terrain) but I don't see it happening. I wouldn't put it past him to include an Iranian skin for the F-14 as a teaser or to spur a 2nd Gen remake of this scenario though.

 

I think after that we may see a return to SF2:E, with TK dialing it back to the 1940s\50s - he said as much when he said that he made the Spitfires for SF2:I with an eye on putting up some opposition for the P-51 over Europe in a merged install. So say he goes for a Berlin Airlift gone hot scenario we could see some USAF\NATO fighters from that era, like the F-80 and F-86, bombers like the B-29, and some more allied transport types, possibly a C-46 or more likely a C-54. The red side would get some prop Yaks or MiGs, maybe an early transport type and possibly an Il-10 to support the Red Army's thrust in western Europe.

 

So, after a new game (SF2: Tomcat) and an expansion pack (SF2:E - Berlin Crisis), we may then see another new game - SF2: Korea, because by then then TK will have far fewer new planes to add, such as the Sea Fury, F4U and F9F for the UN and the La-9 for NK, and can concentrate on a new terrain and skins for the Koerean era planes. And in time an expansion pack for this one could give us a 1980s Korean War II scenario with F-4s, F-16s etc against MiGs, Sukhois etc.

 

Of course I'm probably totally wrong!

[Gr.Viper 131]

Hmm...

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=48180#p48180

 

Right, who hasn't got the XP1 yet???