Its started!

[dsawan 624]

only the beginning.

 

 

 

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/showdown-averted-yorks-wall-street-protests-011542512.html

[exhausted 55]

Maybe it all does end in 2012...

[+whiteknight06604 934]

if these smelly idiots are the future then the world needs to end in 2012

[DEVIL11 31]

What will end in 2012

[Gr.Viper 131]

What will end in 2012

2011

[+Brain32 265]

if these smelly idiots are the future then the world needs to end in 2012

 

If idiots they are protesting against are the future I wonder if we need 2012...

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

They are protesting about a bunch of greedy Motherf***** whose only concern, is to fill their own pockets at YOUR expense!

 

Don't be fooled into thinking, that having a vote, and electing a President/Prime Minister empowers you at all!...you are nothing...you are actually LESS than nothing to the Corporate scum who run your country..and keep you working like a slave..just to keep your head above water....while they swap zero's around, ensuring you stay poor..and they stay rich!

 

They will f*ck your children up the ass to get an extra dime for themselves!...If the World ended in 2012...you can be sure..a Banker will be at the heart of it...because for a microsecond before he is vaporised...he has a dollar more than you!

Edited October 16, 2011 by UK_Widowmaker

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

It won't matter. Dictatorship is: "Shut up, you bastard!", democracy is: "You are free to shout, cry, bleed, starve... We just don't give a damn!"

 

Actually, I don't feel like we still live in national democracies, but in a big worldwide globalized stockmarketocracy, with first-class citizens above (investors, big stock holders, their political puppets hidden behind bodyguards...), knowing each others across fake borders better than they know their own unpriviledged compatriots - and the rest of us far below (we shabby losers). The main and most expensive political steps are always taken "to reassure the investors", "to keep the markets quiet", and these ones need serious guarantees. We seemingly illiterate mob just deserve some vague hollow promises, social alms like food stamps, and possibly strong-arm police interventions if we don't behave as obediently as 21st Century Uncle Toms. And yet, we are periodically remembered to vote for this or that interchangeable political puppets, all of them working for their rich acquaintances and sponsors rather than for the true people. :angry2:

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Wow Widowmaker, I expected to see that kinda statement just... not from you. Nice. Very true too.

 

Hey, didn't Stephen Colbert crunch the numbers and show that your vote (in the US) is worth something like 0.000094% or something along those lines?? I'm willing to bet things would be different if you had mandatory voting like we do here... Well, it's mandatory attendance. You just have to have your name ticked off at the polling station. From there you can chose to vote or leave and not vote.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Wow Widowmaker, I expected to see that kinda statement just... not from you. Nice. Very true too.

 

Hey, didn't Stephen Colbert crunch the numbers and show that your vote (in the US) is worth something like 0.000094% or something along those lines?? I'm willing to bet things would be different if you had mandatory voting like we do here... Well, it's mandatory attendance. You just have to have your name ticked off at the polling station. From there you can chose to vote or leave and not vote.

 

I'm a very Cross Brit

[Gr.Viper 131]

I'm a very Cross Brit

With a flag that merges 3 crosses, it's only natural.

[+Jug 99]

With a flag that merges 3 crosses, it's only natural.

At the risk of being targeted by all sorts of appropriate nasty-grams, I would offer the argument,"Would you do anything different if you were sitting as the CEO of a corporation?" Probably not because, capitalism is all about rewards for hard work. CEOs have to make tough decisions, but that is their job. Sitting in the hot seat is quite different from making comments based on multiple assumptions. Not to say a lot of luck is also involved and, on occasion, a little dancing around the law. I seem to recall that Steve Jobs, some years ago, was in a position to join the crowd protesting whatever the latest thing there was to protest. He, instead, chose to spend his energy and time working hard on his dream. He was rewarded handsomely for his efforts. I kinda like a system that works like that.

 

Your pockets are not filled by bitching and moaning, but they are by dedication and hard work. The democracies of the world, or at least those who have not folded under the pressure to reward and entitle those who have not earned it anyway, are the only environment where those who have nothing can become those with a lot. The United States, for example, is a very classed society, but it is also very mobile one as well. Those with bucks and no brains, spend it all and drop to the lower class and those with no bucks, but a lot of determination and willingness to work can move to the top of the heap in their lifetime (e.g. Jobs [RIP], or Bill Gates).

 

In my opinion, blaming corporations for a situation is a waste of time and effort better spent doing something about the situation. Then again, who am I................?

[Fubar512 1,350]

Your pockets are not filled by bitching and moaning, but they are by dedication and hard work.

 

'Effin A, Jug!

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I don't have a problem with people who work hard...but there are many in the world, who work a lot harder, than some fat twat CEO...for little reward.

My heart does no bleeding whatsoever, when a Corporate Banking CEO has screwed over as many people he can, to get into that position (and lets face it...Mother Theresa was never going to be a CEO was she?)...and then, screws up an entire nations monetary system, before moving on to an even better paid position of power....usually in politics.

 

Bill Gates gets a lot of stick...but he is actually the sort of guy, whom is making a difference..and using his massive wealth to do some good in the World...unlike the Banking industry...whose only goal is to squeeze the last drop of blood from the masses.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Wouldn't normally bother but the amount of things being written about the UK banks over the past few years would lead you to believe there is something fundamentally corrupt and wrong with the system.

 

As for CEOs sitting at the top raking in the money - they have ****ed everything up economy wise and and tax payers are having to STILL bail them out - so either they are not working hard or plainly they are employing a bunch of retards in the wrong positions that need to be replaced.

 

Not content on us bailing them out and the majority being government /part owned again they are now refusing to lend to get the economy going and reportedly spending millions of tax payers money on bonuses they have no right to receive on current performance - but dont worry their profits are going up (phew).

 

If any of this is true they need to be brought under control and crushed quickly - and the perpetrators at the top particularly the CEO/CIOs etc need to be sacked for doing one hell of a **** job.

 

At the moment Bankers have as much cred as rapists over here.......

[+Brain32 265]

I don't know I agree with both Jug and Widowmaker here.

 

To clarify...

 

I don't blame all corporations(if I was an american I would probably blame those that shift jobs out of USA but I'm not although I think you guys should do something about it but tehnically that's none of my buissness), I blame financial institutions that caused the crisis and got awarded for that(although by all characteristics what they did can be qualified as a fraud in criminal law).

And I do think I have the right to blame those because financial market is so globalised it impacts every part of the planet.

 

The 2007-2008 recession was not what is known in economy as a science as natural "buissness cycle", it was caused. And it was caused in a way that brought those CEO's that caused it huge bonuses even though they destroyed their own companies. And on top of that becase their role is so important they got rewarded by your money(bail out, quantitative easing, etc.) promising not to do it again(WTF? should we forgive bank robbers, thiefs and con masters too?) .

 

I see it as a sort of blackmail or extortion...anyway, those are not the ideals of capitalism I like an aspire to...it's financial fascism, financial terorism...something like that anyway...

[+whiteknight06604 934]

life isn't fair...deal with it. there are all sorts of nasty things that happen to good hard working people and bad things also happen to rich greedy people.also to poor greedy people and lazy poor or rich. The crux of the problem isn't greed but envy.Stop worrying about what others have and worry about bettering your situation. I am dirt poor.I live below the poverty level. I have lost my father to a cancer that a rich persons doctor would have found earlier. thats called life. Its these very situations that make me work harder to better my standing to improve my life and that of my children. Do I want more out of life? hell yes but not by taking it from others. Call it "shared sacrifice" or the idiot "paying their fair share" I call it theft.the things that have made this nation great, personal responibility, individualism and a work ethic are fast dispereing and it's a shame. half the people in this country pay no income taxes,30-40% are on foodstamps/whelfare. looks like the evil rich are paying for alot of people to sit on their asses. yes there are many who want to work but i have worked in the innercities and seen what it's like. nice cars in the drivways of public housing, satalite dishes on the roves and not one working person in the whole building yet I'm there fixing their pipes for 5 bucks an hour. lol My great grandmother lost her husband in a fishing boat explosion in the late 20's she raised 11 children during the depression with not one penny of goverment help. she busted her ass cleaning houses and washing peoples cothes until 2am every day. You don't see that these days. what you see is people waiting with hands out all the while wanting what others have but not willing to do the work or take the risks that are needed to get it.

[JediMaster 451]

That's why I think both sides deserve to burn. I make too little for the GOP to give a damn about me and too much for the Democrats to think I'm anything but a fat cat. One side panders to those who make a ton (calling everyone who makes a million dollars or more a "job creator" is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time...how many of them have personal employees besides maybe a house cleaner or a nanny? BUSINESSES create jobs, not people) and thinks everyone who isn't rich is lazy, the other side panders to those who make very little but then sets it up so they pay little to nothing for stuff and even gives money away to those who won't even work.

Their stances make no sense...how can liberals be decried as "intellectuals" if they have so little money? So, stupid people get rich?!? We've got millions of Einsteins with no money and a few thousand complete morons running CEOs? Really?

 

The idealogies of the two sides make me sick...great job taking firm stances on things few to no people care about, while doing your best to maintain the status quo. What both sides' "utopias" would be, based on their goals, I would find to be an uninhabitable morass of uselessness.

 

Unfortunately, all elections boil down to one or the other of these two stupid groups winning. There's no "I think both of these guys suck, send them back and give me more to pick from" option because far too many people are sucked in by these bogus idealogies (that I will bet the lives of, oh, every person on the planet fewer than half of those politicians actually BELIEVE in, it's just a way for them to get power and money for themselves) and will always vote D or R not because they want that one stands FOR, they want to prevent what the OTHER side is for. Guess what? Both parties have been trading off responsibilities for the past 100 years and things are just getting worse, so what kind of logic has it that everything would be just PEACHY if everyone in control was in the same party? That's right, China has that! Look how good they're doing!

 

I'm the guy at dinner forced to choose between a leaf on a twig or a bucket of lard, when all I'd really like is a nice BBQ chicken and a salad. Or as they put it in South Park, a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich when you want someone intelligent who cares.

 

If I had a time machine, I'd go back to the 1780s and convince the framers that political parties be outlawed in the Constitution. Everyone has to run just based on what they believe in, none of this "every Democrat/GOP has to support every precept of the Democratic/GOP party to get nominated or they get booted" crap that ensures the only candidates we see in general elections now are those that appeal to the far left and the far right, leaving those of us in the center just wanting to nuke them all and start over again. No more "registered party only" primaries! Maybe then the candidates closer to the center would get elected.

[FastCargo 412]

JM,

 

Very well said. In addition, I would have also mandated that no one in political office is allowed to be a professional politician. The original intent was that people in office were your neighbors, your local businessmen, etc. I know some folks who don't like the idea of hard term limits, because you don't want to kick out someone who is doing a good job, plus it works against continuity. But does anyone like the idea of someone holding office using half their term campaigning for the next term? Because it sure looks like that sometimes...

 

FC

[+Typhoid 231]

At the risk of being targeted by all sorts of appropriate nasty-grams, I would offer the argument,"Would you do anything different if you were sitting as the CEO of a corporation?" Probably not because, capitalism is all about rewards for hard work. CEOs have to make tough decisions, but that is their job. Sitting in the hot seat is quite different from making comments based on multiple assumptions. Not to say a lot of luck is also involved and, on occasion, a little dancing around the law. I seem to recall that Steve Jobs, some years ago, was in a position to join the crowd protesting whatever the latest thing there was to protest. He, instead, chose to spend his energy and time working hard on his dream. He was rewarded handsomely for his efforts. I kinda like a system that works like that.

 

Your pockets are not filled by bitching and moaning, but they are by dedication and hard work. The democracies of the world, or at least those who have not folded under the pressure to reward and entitle those who have not earned it anyway, are the only environment where those who have nothing can become those with a lot. The United States, for example, is a very classed society, but it is also very mobile one as well. Those with bucks and no brains, spend it all and drop to the lower class and those with no bucks, but a lot of determination and willingness to work can move to the top of the heap in their lifetime (e.g. Jobs [RIP], or Bill Gates).

 

In my opinion, blaming corporations for a situation is a waste of time and effort better spent doing something about the situation. Then again, who am I................?

 

 

On target Jug!!

 

 

Most of those who are critical of free market economies, corporations and private businesses don't understand how any of them actually work. Economic illiteracy is rampant.

 

Businesses create jobs - but those are the people in them that make them work and generate opportunities. Penalize the risk takers and you will eliminate risk-taking - which is precisely the results we now see.

[Razorback 6]

Capitalism is not about rewarding hard work. Tons of people work hard and are never rewarded with anything but way less than the average.

 

Capitalism is about rewarding those who take advantage of ignorance.

[+Typhoid 231]

Capitalism is about putting your money and time at risk and developing a product or service that people want.

 

Working for a business is working for the capitalist who puts it all on the line.

 

The rewards are in line with the risk. If all you risk is your time, you are compensated accordingly.

 

If you want to be paid more, be worth more to the business owners, whether those owners are direct owners in a small business or stockholders represented by on-site managers.

 

If you risk your money by investing, you are rewarded accordingly.

 

If you start and build a business - you are also rewarded accordingly.

 

Success is not assured. Success is dependent upon the business owner making the right decisions and delivering a product or service that others are willing to pay for.

 

that is Free Market Capitalism. Not any other phony description.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Widow, ye olde General Smedley Butler, USMC, reserved special words for giant banks and bankers during the World War 1 era in his book War Is A Racket. Read it. If you don't have time, just word search several times for ..."bank"....

 

-----

 

Typhoid (and Jug), your classical description of free markets does not describe what happens in a bank debt based monetery system, which we have today through our artificial legal tender laws. Legal tender laws are the mortal enemy of free markets, and, legal tender laws were a core requirement of communism from the day of Marx.

 

The "wealth" of independent businesses and labour (men and women), all together, is confiscated through non-liquidating credit -- confiscated by the banking system. But we are required by legal tender law to use the banking system -- ie...even if we use "only cash" (Federal Reserve Notes here in USA) -- we are still using the banking system in our transactions because the legal tender money we are required to use is created by, and is owned by, the banking system. Our paper or e-money we or businesses hold as "wealth" is merely evidence of debt owed by others ... debt owed [by] the society as a whole. That is not holding or accumulating wealth. It is the slow destruction of wealth.

 

Brain (page 1)::

I see it as a sort of blackmail or extortion...anyway, those are not the ideals of capitalism I like an aspire to...it's financial fascism, financial terorism...something like that anyway...

Brain gets it. Getting weak governments to create legal tender laws was the basis for the fraud, although it goes far beyond.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Lexx_Luthor

[+Jug 99]

I'm not smart enough to discuss economics, but I still insist that the wherewithall to do anything exist within a society that allows the risk-taker to be rewarded to the same extent as the risk taken. While I am saddened by the many well-intentioned entitlement programs that have been instituted in my country through the years in exchange for votes, I am equally proud of the many opportunity programs that the US offers for those without much to empower them to use the intestinal fortitude (guts) they are born with to better themselves. My wife and I started our family with nothing. We were trailer-trash and, for the most part, couldn't afford to pay attention. She and I found what it took to gain our education, and, bit-by-bit build a modest home, marketable skills, and be content with what she and I could afford with what we earned. It has been a long road with many ups and downs, but we, both, feel that we were blessed to be born in a nation that values opportunity and rewards hard work. Our faith has been our foundation, our dedication to each other and our children which we chose to bring into this world and raise properly the mortar holding the stones together, our service to our country and community a fundamental requirement to attempt to pass on the same environment to our children as a part structural stones, and the free, respectful political discourse with our neighbors and friends as our never-ending duty as the decorative trim. While our goals may be described as trite and old-fashioned, I can live with that. I have been an athlete most of my life and the greatest lesson that athletics has taught me is that when you need to dig deep and suck it up and go, there is more there than you think. I am of the opinion that you are the always master of your own ship, be that ship a dingy or an aircraft carrier. The reason I have written this way-too-long epic is that I think freedom starts small, with one man and one woman. If your society provides opportunity to better yourself, what's your excuse for not taking the planet on. When do you get to quit - never!

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

That's why I think both sides deserve to burn. I make too little for the GOP to give a damn about me and too much for the Democrats to think I'm anything but a fat cat. One side panders to those who make a ton (calling everyone who makes a million dollars or more a "job creator" is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time...how many of them have personal employees besides maybe a house cleaner or a nanny? BUSINESSES create jobs, not people) and thinks everyone who isn't rich is lazy, the other side panders to those who make very little but then sets it up so they pay little to nothing for stuff and even gives money away to those who won't even work.

Their stances make no sense...how can liberals be decried as "intellectuals" if they have so little money? So, stupid people get rich?!? We've got millions of Einsteins with no money and a few thousand complete morons running CEOs? Really?

 

The idealogies of the two sides make me sick...great job taking firm stances on things few to no people care about, while doing your best to maintain the status quo. What both sides' "utopias" would be, based on their goals, I would find to be an uninhabitable morass of uselessness.

 

Unfortunately, all elections boil down to one or the other of these two stupid groups winning. There's no "I think both of these guys suck, send them back and give me more to pick from" option because far too many people are sucked in by these bogus idealogies (that I will bet the lives of, oh, every person on the planet fewer than half of those politicians actually BELIEVE in, it's just a way for them to get power and money for themselves) and will always vote D or R not because they want that one stands FOR, they want to prevent what the OTHER side is for. Guess what? Both parties have been trading off responsibilities for the past 100 years and things are just getting worse, so what kind of logic has it that everything would be just PEACHY if everyone in control was in the same party? That's right, China has that! Look how good they're doing!

 

I'm the guy at dinner forced to choose between a leaf on a twig or a bucket of lard, when all I'd really like is a nice BBQ chicken and a salad. Or as they put it in South Park, a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich when you want someone intelligent who cares.

 

If I had a time machine, I'd go back to the 1780s and convince the framers that political parties be outlawed in the Constitution. Everyone has to run just based on what they believe in, none of this "every Democrat/GOP has to support every precept of the Democratic/GOP party to get nominated or they get booted" crap that ensures the only candidates we see in general elections now are those that appeal to the far left and the far right, leaving those of us in the center just wanting to nuke them all and start over again. No more "registered party only" primaries! Maybe then the candidates closer to the center would get elected.

 

 

 

 

The recent creation of the Tea Party should have given people in the US an eye-opener that there actually might be a possibility to create an alternative to the dual-party system altogether. It seems there's a lot of "critical mass" available to possibly create a third MAJOR party of the center which may very well provide the balance between either - after all, the more competition there is, the more the people have to gain... So, as Jug said it, for all of you who want to change, don't just stand there and moan and bitch around - DO SOMETHING! At least it's possible in the US because you have critical mass! In my country unfortunately I consider the youth lost because they have no interest in politics whatsoever, and since we've become a democratic republic, politicians themselves made everything they could to assure that they're "first-rate citizens" (SERIOUSLY!!!) compared to all other citizens, and the problem is that the people accepted that, and of course the government did it's best to not encourage or foster critical political thought in education, and promotes dumbing down of the collective IQ of the portuguese people, so there you have it - use the freedom in your country and your proud people to make a change!!! Be the example for the rest of the world's democracies (or at least the western democracies), just like Egypt was for the north african and middle-eastern countries recently!!!