Another 777 lost

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

If an active volcano, like Iceland, you re-route, cancel, or hire a boat. Ground combat = Active volcano

 

Best idea I've read so far is UK seperatists with captured Uk Buk, operated by either Uk separatist old hands trained years ago on Buk, but now rusty, or maybe Russian volunteers sent as...haha advisers. And the problem with advisers, is you can't send advisors without sending more advisers.

 

The most bizzare thing, I first heard about this today on the radio news, with a short clip of Obama speech that went, in paraquote:: ....happened on the Ukraine/Russian border and that he has asked the national security folks to work closely with the Ukraine government.

 

Nothing about working closely with Russian governent. As Conan Barbarian said: haha can you believe that, huh, can you b....?

 

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

There was no "captured Buk." Russian regulars pulling the trigger.

 

Come on guys this is the new Russian asymmetrical warfare MO.

 

Just "rebrand" your military........

 

Too bad the dudes running the SAM where drunk. ( Like every Russian soldier I have ever encountered).

[B52STRATO 215]

*Totally apart*

 

This topic was started by my younger brother, using my still logged-in account. He is a teen and as you could see his English level isn't really good... he probably misread most of your answers. I am awfully sorry for this lack of seriousness.

 

Now I will try to sign out most of time to avoid this problem.

 

Thank for your understanding.

[+Erik 1,812]

[Toryu 156]

 

If an active volcano, like Iceland, you re-route, cancel, or hire a boat. Ground combat = Active volcano

That's not how it works. Airlines fly accros allegedly "hot" airspace all the time.

They even fly into "hot" destinations - be it charter or even scheduled service!

 

If you have a SAM, you don't shoot down an airliner. Just like anyone who legally carries a gun doesn't go out killing random people.

 

The fault is not with the airlines - it's with the asshole that pulled the trigger.

Some people deserve to be hung on the highest tree. That includes the mofos that show passports of the victims on TV.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Doesn't this come back to the guys with the SAMs actually having adequate Identification procedures and reliable systems to provide a 100% ID?

 

And which one of the Airlines is so confident in those systems - they are happy to fly over them safe in the knowledge there is no way they could ever be mistaken for a military transport?

 

And the people in the airlines making these decisions - do they have any clue as to the ID procedures or who is actually operating these systems - think that's a big no.

 

Bare in mind we have no idea how far they were from the Airliner - were they in range for a visual ID (was the weather clear?) or are they just looking at a radar scope and guessing base on incoming vector and flight profile - we will never likely never know.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Stick a needle in the chart!

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh17#3d6095b

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

100 of the dead were health workers, analysts, researchers, etc on their way to an Aids conference in Melbourne. They're saying this is a devastating blow to Aids research too. The stupidity of firing on an airliner... it's unbelievable. I hope someone renditions the f*ck out of the perpetrators of this. 

[MigBuster 2,884]

100 of the dead were health workers, analysts, researchers, etc on their way to an Aids conference in Melbourne. They're saying this is a devastating blow to Aids research too. The stupidity of firing on an airliner... it's unbelievable. I hope someone renditions the f*ck out of the perpetrators of this. 

 

I would also like to see the Airline companies getting a good kicking as well..............for being so naive into thinking it was an acceptable risk!! Shooting down friendly aircraft and airliners over war zones is consistent throughout conflict.

 

Whether it was downed on purpose or (more likely considering the outfall) someone screwed up doesn't matter - it should not have been there!!

[+ST0RM 145]

I'm interested to hear hrc and Snailman's take on this now.

 

RIP to MH17.

[Nesher 628]

my deepest condolences to the families... such a terrible tragedy!

someone needs to hunt down those who fired the SAM at this aircraft!!

[Toryu 156]

Flown routes of different airlines and flight-restrictions in-place before the shootdown, according to NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=1#diverted

 

Looks like the restricted zones were much farther south, over Crimea.

Also, some sources say that MH17 diverted to a track running slighttly to the north of the filed route, due to weather.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

I would also like to see the Airline companies getting a good kicking as well..............for being so naive into thinking it was an acceptable risk!!

 

 

I don't disagree with you there. Malaysian Airlines has had a history of taking risks and cutting corners in pretty unacceptable ways (arguably) over the past decade. There has been talk in Asia-Pac aviation circles about a lax attitude in the company regarding safety vs efficiency, and it only being a matter of time before it caused or exacerbated a critical failure. MH370 exposed a lot of their internal failings, both for themselves, and the government, but it seems some of those attitudes haven't changed at all. The news here has been reporting that the aircraft was flying only 1000ft above the restricted airspace in the Ukraine. Sure, 33000ft seems sufficient, but when the restricted zone limit is 32000ft, it seems way, way too risky to even contemplate. The vast majority of civil traffic servicing the region has avoided the route entirely! It beggars belief that you'd even contemplate taking that kind of risk.

 

In better news, the Ukrainians say they have detained 2 of the 3 people suspected of firing on the aircraft:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-19/ukraine-government-says-missile-expert-arrested-near-border/5608744

Edited July 18, 2014 by SayWhatt

[+Gepard 11,314]

An interessting fact, i have heard today in the serious german newsradio Deutschlandfunk, was the statement, that a ukrainian IL-76 transportplane was flying "near" the shot down 777. the "near" means some km distance, like usual in civil traffic. It was believed, that this plane was the intended target and the SAM crew accidently fired on the malaysian plane.

[+Erik 1,812]

I said it before. A responsible airline does not fly over these types of zones with extreme tension and civil uprising whether they can or not. Troops are moved on commercial airlines all the time. You want to gamble with your passenger's lives over a thousand dollars worth of fuel, suffer the consequences and be labeled a mass murderer. Malaysian Airlines are just that. The only thing they are worthy of is a going out of business sign.

[FastCargo 412]

Minor point here...to save money, you fly higher, not lower. The routing is more critical to fuel savings than altitude. If they were barely above the no fly zone, it was probably because of a combination of weight and direction of travel.

 

I still disagree about modern airliners operating in war zones. The majority of threats are from MANPADS, which modern airliners are resistant to. The risk is significantly less, especially at altitude and cruise speed from a MANPAD for a modern airliner. If you look at airliner downings over history, almost all of the have been slower, lower, smaller props/turboprops...much more vulnerable to any gomer with a shoulder fired MANPAD. The big airliner downings have been due to either large SAMs (MH, Iran Air) or fighters (KAL). The one exception was DHL, and even then, that aircraft was recovered and repaired.

 

It's simple...you should not operate airliners in an active combat area where combatants have medium to high altitude capable SAMs. What costs more...increased fuel usage or a downed aircraft?

 

FC

[+logan4 847]

Sad event. That's where trigger happiness takes everyone - innocents will pay the price.

Airlines many times fly over war zones. Only few detour. They done the same fly overs even in the serbo-croatio wars before any nato or UN forces arrived in the area. Spent 8 months on the Hungarian-Yugoslavian border in an auxiliary radar base.

Even if they are close the radar operator should be able to differentiate each target and query IFF transponders, those airliners literally have to be closer than 200m to read one blip on a normal resolution. Unless the operator switched to max distance he should see each one without a problem.

 

May the victims and their relatives find their peace.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

FC:: What costs more...increased fuel usage or a downed aircraft?

 

I suppose its a calculated risk. One of the most popular lines out of Babyloin~5 was season-1 Susan in l'>Mind War :: "What do you do in your spare time, juggle babies over a fire pit? Oops, there goes another calculated risk."

 

 

Tor::

 

That's not how it works. Airlines fly across allegedly "hot" airspace all the time.

They even fly into "hot" destinations - be it charter or even scheduled service!

 

Agreed. That's not how it worked yesterday. Today, the airlines stumble over themselves to re-rout the babies away from the fire pit as fast as they can, or cancel, or maybe hire boats.

 

 

[+Dave 2,322]

!FDC 4/2182 (KFDC A0025/14) ZZZ AIRSPACE SPECIAL NOTICE UKRAINE POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION - SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) AND DNEPROPETROVSK (UKDV) FLIGHT INFORMATION REGIONS (FIR) UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, DUE TO RECENT EVENTS, ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS BY UNITED STATES (U.S.) OPERATORS WITHIN THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) AND DNEPROPETROVSK (UKDV) FIRS ARE PROHIBITED. EVENTS HAVE INDICATED THE POTENTIAL FOR CONTINUED HAZARDOUS ACTIVITIES. THIS ACTION EXPANDS A PROHIBITION OF U.S. FLIGHT OPERATIONS ISSUED BY THE FAA INITIALLY AS A NOTAM ON APRIL 3, 2014, AND LATER AS SFAR NO. 113 OVER THE CRIMEAN REGION OF UKRAINE AND ADJACENT AREAS OF THE BLACK SEA AND THE SEA OF AZOV. THE PROHIBITIONS DESCRIBED IN THE SPECIFIED AIRSPACE CONTAINED IN THIS NOTAM AND THE ASSOCIATED JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS SPECIAL NOTICE WILL BE RE-EVALUATED BY 31 OCT 2014. 1407180030-1410312359

[B52STRATO 215]

Seems like no regional ATC was available since a time:

 

  UKCC DONETSK ACC  

UKKR-A0792/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Apr 22  09:32 C) 2014 Jul 22  23:59E) AERODROME STRIP DIMENSIONS RWY 08/26 4300X197MWID NORTH PART AERODROME STRIP 150MWID SOUTH PART AERODROME STRIP 47M.REF AIP UKCC AD 2.24.1-1.

UKKR-A0793/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Apr 22  09:36 C) 2014 Jul 22  23:59E) DIGGING WIP. 50M SOUTH OF RCL AND PARALLELRWY 08/26. EQPT HGT 3M.EQPT REMOVED WHEN LVP IS APPLIED.REF AIP UKCC AD 2.24.1-1.

UKKR-A1030/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 May 12  19:30 C) PERME) TMA DONETS'K TC-2 COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN.REF AIP ENR 2.1-4.

UKKR-A1169/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 May 26  00:00 C) 2014 Aug 25  23:59E) ILS RWY 08 CAT II/IIIA NOT AVBL. REF AIP UKCC AD 2.24.12-1.

UKKR-A1347/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Jun 24  11:00 C) 2014 Sep 30  23:59 ESTE) PAVLIV NDB PW OUT OF SERVICE.REF AIP GEN 2.5-3, ENR 4.1-2.

UKKR-A1348/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Jun 24  11:00 C) 2014 Sep 30  23:59 ESTE) DONETS'K VOR/DME DON OUT OF SERVICE.REF AIP GEN 2.5-1, ENR 4.1-1.

UKKR-A1397/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Jun 27  09:45 C) 2014 Oct 31  23:59 ESTE) AD CLOSED DUE TO TECHNICAL REASON.REF AIP UKCC AD 2-1.

UKKR-A1415/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Jul 01  13:15 C) 2014 Sep 30  23:59 ESTE) TMA DONETS'K TC-1 WITHDRAWN. SERVICE NOT PROVIDED.REF AIP ENR 2.1-4.

UKKR-A1416/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Jul 01  13:20 C) 2014 Sep 30  23:59 ESTE) CTR DONETS'K WITHDRAWN. SERVICE NOT PROVIDED.REF AIP UKCC AD 2-7.

UKKR-A1417/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Jul 01  13:30 C) 2014 Sep 30  23:59 ESTE) TWR, GND, AIS BRIEFING OFFICE AND ARO CLOSED.SERVICE NOT PROVIDED.REF AIP UKCC AD 2-1, AD 2-7.

UKKR-A1418/14 A) UKCC B) 2014 Jul 01  13:35 C) 2014 Sep 30  23:59 ESTE) APP DONETS'K TC-1 CLOSED. SERVICE NOT PROVIDED.REF AIP ENR 2.1-4.

[hrc 156]

 There is a war zone in eastern Ukraine, with multiple planes shot down over the past few months, and Kiev did nothing serious to avoid such a tragedy. As if they wanted it to happen.

Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the country in which airspace this disaster has happened.

[+ianh755 196]

I'd say the people who fired the missile are "ultimately responsible" there hrc, being that they are the ones who actually killed people.

 

All the other talk of who is right or wrong (airlines, governments etc) doesn't change the fact that the people who fired those missiles are the only ones Directly Responsible, it was "their" decision to kill people by shooting down a plane (regardless of who they thought was aboard it), nobody elses.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ianh755

[hrc 156]

I'd say the people who fired the missile are "ultimately responsible" there hrc, being that they are the ones who actually killed people.

 

 

I agree that they are responsible, whether they are Ukrainian or pro Russian military. But if you ask me for directions to your destination and I direct you to go trough a neighborhood where their is a gang war raging with daily fatalities  and you get shot, ultimately the responsibility is not with the person who pulled the trigger or the one that supplied the gunner with a gun, but with me for sending you through that hood in the first place.

Remember, Ukrainian jets are bombing pro Russians and getting shot back at on daily basis for some time now, downed planes include IL-76, and An-26, which are big birds, so saying that they couldn't see civilian planes be endangered in those skies, or saying that they didn't know that separatists have the reach is just utterly irresponsible and bears more blame than anything else.

 

[+ST0RM 145]

Ahh, hrc quoted Comrade Putin, just as I thought he would.

 

Thank you for not disapointing.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Considering the sudden, panic re-routing and re-restricting of airspace proves these 300 babies were juggled over a fire pit.

 

Ground combat = active volcano = fire pit ... it really does all tie together.