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Dave

Patience.....Or the Lack There Of.....

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Fellow enthusiasts, while us modders appreciate the interest you have in our mods there seems to be a lot of gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme.....then there is the posts of the "hey nice plane you are working on but can you do this one too". Craig's Typhoon post is an example.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...80&start=80

It went from him showing off his Typhoon to, "Can we have a TSR.2 next?

 

Then we move on to the, is it done yet, or can we have an update, or will you keep us updated. Last but not least, the rivet counters. It's nice to be critical and advice is always welcome but there are some that are going to the extreme that are pushing some away from modding at all. Veltro's MIG-31 is a prime example. He is trying to get it right but A. he is a new modeler, B. he is doing the best he can. But some have picked it apart so much he doesn't want to post pictures of it anymore. We will be lucky if he even finishes it at all along with his other projects.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...40&start=40

Here you can see he is not wanting to show anyone anything for fear its going to be packed apart again.

 

It's things like this that cause the modding community to not show their works anymore. One prominent skinner has pulled his projects from CA because he is sick of the rivet counting and the gimme gimme's. Some of you drove him to that extreme. That is a damn shame.

 

A lot of you are forgetting that we are doing this in our spare time, we have no deadlines set. Some projects are on hold now to see what the new patch brings. So step back take a deep breath and let the modders do their thing in peace.

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I talked to Steven Colbert over this and he sent me this.....

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"So step back take a deep breath and let the modders do their thing in peace."

 

Well put.

 

I think sometimes people don't even realize that their enthusiasm, while well intentioned, is sometimes really not appropriate (or even respectful).

 

Thanks for the reminder.

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WHat I don't get is that the Yellow Sqn skin I started making and released for the Su-27 is utter shyte, and yet no one's said to me "Its pretty crappy dude" or "You know, it doesn't look like that" and it deserves it WAY more than what a lot of the modders recieve! :rofl:

 

And what's Colbert got against the Gimme Gimmes?? They're a great band! Is it because they covered one of Manilow's songs?? :biggrin:

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The real trouble is that most whiners have never tried to mod the game themselves, they just can't understand the learning curve, the sheer amount of time it requires to even get to the point where you are vaguely satisfied with the result.

Any of us with a little experience modding (or trying to mod) know to just wait and be satisfied with what we get (or modify it to suit our own standards, or just ignore it).

 

Alas, the whiners are not entirely to blame, part of the problem is some prolific modders, posting a lot of previews, releasing a lot of material, sometimes rather unpolished, creating the impression among the less discriminate and naive members of the community that modding is easy and fast, or that they are in some way "entitled" to a new plane a day.

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WTF?! why am I being singled out or even on that list to begin with?

 

You and me, 1 on 1. enemy territory: quake wars. tonight.

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The real trouble is that most whiners have never tried to mod the game themselves, they just can't understand the learning curve, the sheer amount of time it requires to even get to the point where you are vaguely satisfied with the result.

Any of us with a little experience modding (or trying to mod) know to just wait and be satisfied with what we get (or modify it to suit our own standards, or just ignore it).

 

Alas, the whiners are not entirely to blame, part of the problem is some prolific modders, posting a lot of previews, releasing a lot of material, sometimes rather unpolished, creating the impression among the less discriminate and naive members of the community that modding is easy and fast, or that they are in some way "entitled" to a new plane a day.

 

 

previews aren't a problem at all (at least from my point of view), it helps to keep the moral high toward this game series, since the overall dev of it is pretty slow (of course for some good reasons as the small team of the main dev).

Edited by Murphy'S

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As stated, previews are not a problem in themselves, it's the conjunction of prolific previews AND naive non-modders which is the real problem.

 

Maybe a central project tracker would help.

 

It would give a place to see the list of projects, the status, the SP-compatibility, a place for bugfixes.

It may also help the whiners realise the amount of time needed, the number of projects around, the number of projects in which some modders are involved (and therefore the fact that they have a life and can't devote a lot of time to a particular project just to have an unknown whiner shut up).

 

Well, all in all, maybe the modding community has something to learn from software development (including backup, versioning, branching, bug-tracking, documentation and licence models).

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Maybe a central project tracker would help.

 

The problem with that is the people that are pissing people off wouldn't read it anyways. F-22 stickie come to mind?

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The only thing I disagree with Dave on is that I think its fine for people to post requests. This is a good way to gauge demand for a new aircraft or other item, but it should not be done in a thread that is an announcement or discussion of another aircraft/item. Other than that I am 100% behind the OP.

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Its kinda a double edged sword. The community is partly to blame for the gimmie gimme attitude, but its not all there fault.

 

I personally see nothing wrong with the community asking for certain aircraft, it matters little because the Modders are going to make what they want to anyway. Ideas and Requests from the non-modding community can only help inspire the modders as long as it isn't beating a dead horse.

 

The F-22 comes to mind, Its probably the most requested aircraft at the moment. All the innocent questions,begging and whining from the community comes from the fact that everyone wants it but no one wants to build it. Its gotten to the point where questions anger the modders and lack of answers anger the community. All we ever hear is "I Want A Raptor" and "Its a WIP". Either side being short tempered about it is kinda silly, the questions and answers will go away when the Raptor is complete, until then i doubt much will change.

 

Showing a preview much too early creates excitement and anticipatation over a project and then when the community asks for a progress report its taken as being impatent. IMO Both parties are at fault,If you really want to avoid all the questions then don't preview your project until its reasonably near release,If you let the cat outta the bag its hardly fair to blame the dog for chasing it. And if you really want information about something be polite about it and dont constantly harass the modder about it if he/she is unwilling to talk about it.

 

I Know that when modders show a preview they often state that the project is not finished, but once the community sees it working In-Game they fail to understand how complex the process of final tweaking is. To someone who does not make mods, a complete 3d model working in-game makes them think the project is alot closer to complete than it appears.

 

The Community needs to understand that Tweaking Flight Models,Loadouts and the other various INIs takes alot of time, in some cases even more than making the model itself. Then you have to finalize the skins after all that. Its very time consuming and frustrating for both the modder and the community.

 

Finally, To nit-pick someones work when you can't do it better yourself is just wrong. Theres a big difference between saying "The Wing is out of proportion, might wanna have a look at that" or saying "You Got the Wings Wrong,Its Sucks". A little friendly suggestion is a million times better than rude insults.

 

The Thirdwire modders are incredible, They work long and hard hours to bring us these mods and i am grateful for there work. However they are not inhuman machines that can whip out a new plane every couple days, real life tends to get in the way and sometimes projects get scrapped.

 

The Thirdwire Community is also one of the best, there passion and energy have kept this sim alive and there continued interest earns more sales for TK which means more good stuff for everyone. Is this because of the mods? Sure, but without the community there would be nothing to mod.

 

So everyone, Modders and Community alike, Try to show some patience for each other. We are all in this together! :good:

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I'ma try my best to be like Switzerland here and be neutral :wink:

 

USAFMTL brings up many good points. I think at times we, non-modders, forget that modders do these works in their SPARE time. We might be too inclined to think that the works in progress are their #1 priority that we fail to see that modders don't get paid for their works and that they do have other obligations (jobs, families, and other social/financial obligations). We need to be more mindful of these things and just be grateful that they are taking their time to give us these great projects.

 

On the other side of the fence, modders are artists. Although their median is not canvas, clay, or marble, modders do create art that we enjoy. With that being said, an artist's creation is ALWAYS going to be criticized, be it a still-life painting, a marble sculpture, or a new skin template of an F-8D. People always have something to say, but that's just our inherit nature. When you make your work public or for the public, it's always going to be scrutinized...it's the rules of the game that the artist chose to play.

 

:biggrin: K...laterz

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I think its great that this topic was started. I recently started modding but before, I was the exact same as all of "Gimme gimme, I want I want" community. Looking back on it, especially after reading this, Im embarassed and apologize to all of the modders.

 

I Know that when modders show a preview they often state that the project is not finished, but once the community sees it working In-Game they fail to understand how complex the process of final tweaking is. To someone who does not make mods, a complete 3d model working in-game makes them think the project is alot closer to complete than it appears.

 

I cant even get to the point of putting my a/c in-game yet. Im amazed at all of the modders work, even though I dont show it. This quote really made me think, I looked at the posts some have made and most of them come after the modder posts pics like those. I guess thats all I could say, but I think that it is the non-modding comunnitys fault mostly.

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The only thing I disagree with Dave on is that I think its fine for people to post requests. This is a good way to gauge demand for a new aircraft or other item, but it should not be done in a thread that is an announcement or discussion of another aircraft/item. Other than that I am 100% behind the OP.

 

Actually we are on the same sheet of music. Requests are good but a new thread is more appropriate.

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When you make your work public or for the public, it's always going to be scrutinized...it's the rules of the game that the artist chose to play.

 

You know in a way its no ones place to scrutinize anything unless they paid for it. If its given away for free you have the option of not downloading it if you don't like it. Or deleting it without having the loss of any money. The problem is no one knows how to scrutinize without coming off sounding like a prick 90% of the time.

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WTF?! why am I being singled out or even on that list to begin with?

 

You and me, 1 on 1. enemy territory: quake wars. tonight.

 

Ask Colbert, he put you on there.

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One thing nobody has mentioned is that we have alot of people from all over the world. Not everyone's english may be perfect and can easily make something sound more rude or demanding than meant.

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One thing nobody has mentioned is that we have alot of people from all over the world. Not everyone's english may be perfect and can easily make something sound more rude or demanding than meant.

 

I don't see that as a problem as any observant person can pretty much tell if that is the case. Wait....we are dealing with people now....forget my last statement.

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I apologize to anyone that I may have acted like this too. You are right.

 

Looking back I can find an example of how modders can get so upset by RCs and perfectionists. Those who fly FS9 will most likely know. A modder by the name of Mike Stone made many aircraft for FS8 and FS9. Now some teeneage brats who NEEDED a VC and such must of harrased the hell out of him. Infact here is a whole topic about it on Simviation! http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...?num=1180373592 Now the guy on there that disagreed with him "heathhaze" who complained about the F-111 seemed to have forgot that it was he ONLY F-111 for FS9. Also on there I am JA 37 Viggen.

 

 

Once again I am sorry.

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I know modding is hard. That is why I dont bother the modders because it's aggrevating and annoying! I have alot of skins in the works and some need touch ups thats why im a little drawn back about putting up teaser photos.

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Now that Colbert sign is funny!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

 

 

Me First and the Gimmie Gimmies.... great ska/punk band... I got all thier CD's!!!! :good:

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Guess my name can be added to the offender's list as well, with me just recently asking Capun if any update was available fon the HF-24 :oops: I never really thought about it the way USAF mentioned it, I honestly believed that occassionally asking someone about the progress of their project showed how much one appreciated their work, oh well guess when it's asked by a large number of people on a constant basis it can get rather annonying. I apologise.

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