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Caesar

Your Toughest Opponent

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Hey all,

 

I'm on spring break and have been playing a fair amount of WoE/I and got to thinking that there's only one enemy plane that consistantly throws a HARD dogfight at me: the MiG-17. Just wondering what plane is the hardest for our members to beat in SF/WoV/E/I in a dogfight?

 

In the Tomcat, most Eastern aircraft don't cause too much trouble in close, not even the Flanker or Fulcrum (as I've recently discovered), but unlike those aircraft, the Fresco handles damn well at low airspeed and can saddle my aircraft with relative ease if I'm not thinking...takes a lot of tricks to get away. In a Phantom, I usually end up full o' holes! I understand also that different aircraft are more and less capable of handling different threats...well...differently (max perform at different altitudes, airspeeds, have bigger or smaller turn radius, etc.) So I'm just curious: what is the aircraft that gives you the most trouble consistantly?

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I have to second you on that, the one plane that gives me greif time and time again is the Mig-17. Even in some 4th gen fighters, in the right circumstance, the 17 can be a worthy opponent.

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Agreed, on the MiG-17.Though, the MiG-19 is tough too because it will turn almost as well as the -17, but you can't simply light the burners and put some distance between the two of you.

 

I know what you mean Caesar. I've tried to go for guns on those little bastards in the Turkey and got pretty frustrated when we were simply staring at each other as we went around the circle for a good couple minutes.

 

In the F-8, I feel pretty confident about engaging any of its contemporary MiGs. If it's -21s, I hardly think about it and just go in guns blazing. But, with -17s and -19s I have to be on top of my game, or I can find myself on the receiving end of a 30mm cannon round.

 

On the red side, I was out for a spin in Marcfighters' Su-27, and was surprised when on the first two sorties I got smoked. The second time was a little extra embarrassing as my antagonist was an F-4E (granted, it was our flight of 4 against their 12, and I had 2 Sparrows and 3 Sidewinders launched on me before I bought it). I think the blue side jets are a little better armed in general and offer a little better SA in the cockpit.

 

On the whole, I haven't flown against many of the more modern threats, like Flankers of Fulcrums, or Eagles, Hornets, or Tomcats. If I had, I'd probably be listing more of them instead.

Edited by gbnavy61

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My toughest opponent is Sixgun, Spungie, Creature, and Redbat. As for the MiG-17, it's to overly moddeled in the Oct08 update it's laughable.

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As my SF2 install is alive with 'what ifs' I often come across Friendly types in 'enemy' service and can remember having a fantastic scrap with Polish Lightnings (jets not props) that lasted for ages and ages.

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Agreed, on the MiG-17.Though, the MiG-19 is tough too because it will turn almost as well as the -17, but you can't simply light the burners and put some distance between the two of you.

 

I know what you mean Caesar. I've tried to go for guns on those little bastards in the Turkey and got pretty frustrated when we were simply staring at each other as we went around the circle for a good couple minutes.

 

In the F-8, I feel pretty confident about engaging any of its contemporary MiGs. If it's -21s, I hardly think about it and just go in guns blazing. But, with -17s and -19s I have to be on top of my game, or I can find myself on the receiving end of a 30mm cannon round.

 

On the red side, I was out for a spin in Marcfighters' Su-27, and was surprised when on the first two sorties I got smoked. The second time was a little extra embarrassing as my antagonist was an F-4E (granted, it was our flight of 4 against their 12, and I had 2 Sparrows and 3 Sidewinders launched on me before I bought it). I think the blue side jets are a little better armed in general and offer a little better SA in the cockpit.

 

On the whole, I haven't flown against many of the more modern threats, like Flankers of Fulcrums, or Eagles, Hornets, or Tomcats. If I had, I'd probably be listing more of them instead.

 

 

I smoke Su-27's and Mig-29's regularly in the F-4S, there is nothing to be embarrassed about.

Edited by Icarus999

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The Su-27 gives me a problem if it is on my tail already. I like flying the Gripen and it stalls easier, turns slower, and is underpowered compared to the Flanker. I don't usually have much of a problem if I have missiles, but if in a gunfight and it gets on my tail first I have a hard time shaking it. It's always the guns that kill me.

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I have to agree, I think the Red aircraft are in general less capable in the later years than the western ones. I jumped a flight of A-7s with the new Mig-29 fired 4 archers, they dodged em all. For a missile that scared the DoD when it went public it was not delivering. I can always smoke the Reds in later years with large odds against me no problem. Its the 15's 17's and 19's that are fun to fly against. There, the missiles don't make any difference and its all about the pilot skill and the quality of the aircraft.

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The 17 is good, its got almost the right mix for "dog fighting", it lacks when your talking about longer ranges though. Its like WWII, you dont want to get in a turning fight with a zero. Slash attacks with higher speed aircraft are the best form of attack/defence...

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I agree with the MiG-17's are the toughest customer, hard to get it into the firing envolope with IR missiles. It does have it's weaknesses though, bad roll rate and speed witch was explaned before, just like a Zeke. So I like to get them into the verticle or even a rolling scissors to defeat them. The wingman comes in handy for them as well, but it's still no cake walk, not matter which one I play, WOE, WOI, or SF2 they make me work for each pelt. I still think the best fights I've had with them are in the F-100D's. The F-100's don't have quite the turn radius but make up in roll rate and power. F-4's on the other hand can be a little tricky as I mainly rope them to set up my wingman for the kill or use him as bait to set up for me. Using the wingman as bait is risky for him but with using the break command, the MiG usually is target fixated on him and will only match his turn setting up for a gun shot. I use the same tactics for the Mirages and Neshers in WOI as I do in F-4's against MiG-17's.

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I think the western weapons are better in comparisen with the soviet missiles, one shot one kill. But for WOV it`s the MiG-17F, damn fast, afterburner and very tide turnradius.

 

what makes the differences currently is the fact that a weapon like the aim9-L is overaccurate and another one like the aa-11 is too easily decoyed by flare

 

it seems that the lima kill rate is about 80% in reality, in the game it's far over (and it was tweaked down a bit by tk in the latest patch :blink: )

 

maybe some works on the lima (and the mike and all the recents missiles, red as well as blue) is needed

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I fly the F-4's a lot and the early Migs are a pain, I always try to keep my advantages against their weakness but sometimes in a big fur ball I find myself totally in defensive mode. The basic plan is to take out as many as I can from distance then keep zooming away :biggrin:

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F-4's on the other hand can be a little tricky as I mainly rope them to set up my wingman for the kill or use him as bait to set up for me. Using the wingman as bait is risky for him but with using the break command, the MiG usually is target fixated on him and will only match his turn setting up for a gun shot. I use the same tactics for the Mirages and Neshers in WOI as I do in F-4's against MiG-17's.

I dont think its that tricky. In a F-4 you have a lot (but a lot, a really LOT) much power than the 17 F. You can always keep the airspeed and altitude way above them and attack at will. Off course it can get tricky if you fail and overshoot them, specialy if they have heatseeking missiles but away from that, if you have the patience, you´ll have the kill.

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MiG-17F and MiG-19S are hands down the toughest to fight against or evade. MiG-17s we all know the tricks to get away from, but Farmers are a lot trickier. Even on the deck in an F-105 with no stores I've had trouble.

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Dont feel to down - the MiG-17F is a superfighter in WOI - it follows an F-15A up to 700 +kts and turns with it no problem at those speeds - which just wouldnt happen with the real thing that didnt have powered flight controls- but hey it keeps you on your toes.

 

 

On The other hand the stock MiG-21 series needs a bit more agility it is out turned far too easy by just about anything IMO.

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what makes the differences currently is the fact that a weapon like the aim9-L is overaccurate and another one like the aa-11 is too easily decoyed by flare

 

it seems that the lima kill rate is about 80% in reality, in the game it's far over (and it was tweaked down a bit by tk in the latest patch :blink: )

 

maybe some works on the lima (and the mike and all the recents missiles, red as well as blue) is needed

 

A touchy subject - as there is limited information on the real accuracy of each missile against flares.

 

just put the AIM-9L to the same params as the AA-11 using the weapons editor - sorted

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I've been looking at latest WeaponsData.ini(s) and found that most of AA missiles are highly innacurate... Almost all western ones are overpowered, and their eastern counterparts underpowered.

 

In example, the Archer have to be way better than a Lima and Mike, and only overcomed by the 9X.

Guess what... 1982's R-60M has poorer stats than 1973's R-60 and 1972's 9J.

 

Skyflash missile has better stats than AIM-7M and a little less than 7P... when it is derivated from AIM-7E2/F...

 

Matra R-530D (D for Doppler) has the same stats that R-530F has 9 years before.

 

Python 4 is less accurate than Python 3... and so on.

 

 

But I'm not complaining for free. With a friend we are starting a joint project to balance and give a little more realistic behaviour to almost all AA weapons.

 

 

 

Luckyly, there is no countermeasure for 30mm rounds :grin:

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The MiG-17 is not as nasty an adversary for the Mirage III (in WoI) as is the Hunter. 17's are dogmeat if you Z & B in a Mirage, but the Hunters seem as if they're imbued with almost an occult sense as to what your intentions are.

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One of the reasons why the MiG-17 is such a tough adversary is that the AI breaks down when it comes to section tactics. In the game, if you unload/extend in your Phantom, the MiG-17 will always attempt to chase you. Now in real life this should make him meat for your wingman or any other friendly in the neighborhood, but in-game the AI simply does not respond appropriately, and you are left with the option of extending out a few miles, turning around and coming back with a head-on gun or Sparrow shot.

 

This is unfortunate because it is the reverse of what actually occurred in Vietnam, with the Fresco being swatted out of the sky like flies and the Fishbed considered the more dangerous foe.

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I've been looking at latest WeaponsData.ini(s) and found that most of AA missiles are highly innacurate... Almost all western ones are overpowered, and their eastern counterparts underpowered.

 

In example, the Archer have to be way better than a Lima and Mike, and only overcomed by the 9X.

Guess what... 1982's R-60M has poorer stats than 1973's R-60 and 1972's 9J.

 

Skyflash missile has better stats than AIM-7M and a little less than 7P... when it is derivated from AIM-7E2/F...

The skyflash although used the body of the Sparrow had a pretty advanced seeker head on it - which may or may not have made it comparible to the AIM-7M - unless they were compared under similar test fire conditions theres no way to compare them.

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I've been looking at latest WeaponsData.ini(s) and found that most of AA missiles are highly innacurate... Almost all western ones are overpowered, and their eastern counterparts underpowered.

 

In example, the Archer have to be way better than a Lima and Mike, and only overcomed by the 9X.

Guess what... 1982's R-60M has poorer stats than 1973's R-60 and 1972's 9J.

 

Skyflash missile has better stats than AIM-7M and a little less than 7P... when it is derivated from AIM-7E2/F...

 

Matra R-530D (D for Doppler) has the same stats that R-530F has 9 years before.

 

Python 4 is less accurate than Python 3... and so on.

 

 

But I'm not complaining for free. With a friend we are starting a joint project to balance and give a little more realistic behaviour to almost all AA weapons.

 

 

 

Luckyly, there is no countermeasure for 30mm rounds :grin:

 

thanks a lot :good:

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I've always considered the 21 and 19 more of a threat than the 17.

 

I've been shot down by all three so i sorta felt impartial when comparing them. Fishbeds are a danger if you are in a situation where you are going to be relativly straight and level for a while. I once was shot down about 2 seconds after i got a kill with an AIM-7. I was moving at high speed but the Sparrow shot made me a predictable target. Mig-19s on the other hand are the ultimate gunfighters. I remember once in WOE when one past by on a near reciprocal course as my wingman and i were heading back to base. Damned if that thing didn't convert onto us in a heartbeart and close to firing range quick!

 

If we didn't head for the deck that MIG driver would have had two kills for certain!

Edited by Lt. James Cater

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AleDucat>

The Skyflash were better missiles than the contemporary Sparrows they were based upon.

Likewise, Alenia's Aspide (another Sparrow derivative) was also far superior to the original, being the best "Sparrow" for a long time.

 

As for the Super 530D, it was identical to the 530F except for the seeker, whose additionnal abilities were not so much range and ECCM but better chances of taking on low-flying aircrafts and look down capacities.

 

So it's not all inconsistencies...

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Luckyly, there is no countermeasure for 30mm rounds :grin:

 

 

Sure there is! Release a self inflating balloon shaped like your aircraft. Distracts gunners guaranteed!

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