Its got a name...

[squid 21]

small inclusive lecture

 

[ ... ]

Edited November 28, 2011 by squid

[+Stary 2,426]

Well thats just dandy isnt it. I was one the phone with one of CA's members last night and he brought up a good point. If TK was to fold up shop and leave now, we would still keep going. If CA was to fold shop his fan base and word of mouth would drop off then his sale would tank. This site gets 90% of its traffic for the SF1/2 series, which in turn has generated money for TK. How many newbies have came here asking about the games etc and we send them to Thirdwire to get them. We have been free advertising for them for years. What really pisses me off is that we can't even get TK to stop in and say hi, we wanted to do an interview, nada. But the first time we or I say something against the grain, DanW leaves. Here is the kicker, all this talk about this new game on this site is going to to get TK sales anyway. There is no two way street for him at all. There is no scratch his back and I'll scratch yours. All we want is a little communication, does this game progress, does the game have this type of avionics, how will the AI handle jamming and AWACs with the aircraft we have seen? People are tired of getting the same thing. That is why I for example havent been doing much, I'm bored with the game. We are working on the Vipers but I can't get motivated for anything new. Sundowner is another example, he is burned out. ST0RM is the same. I can list more. Yes I want his game to do good, just what's new? Why should we tell people to buy it? I know him and DanW look at the site and I know they are watching this thread. Now TK does not have to say anything at all, that is his right. However A site that spends about $11,000 a year to run and generates money from the fan base should get some common courtesy from the person who the site is mostly built around.

 

Dave,

I must admit I was angry at you two days ago. After your "boycott Tomcat" statement. I thought "what in the world is he's doing, will do no good for game and the community". But after rethinking whole thing I must admit you had right to react in such a way. I know that reaction wasn't abput lack of screen of plane A or cockpit B, it was our general disappointed of TK's lack of communications with the fanbase (which this site is the best part of) regarding future projects, voiced by you in such manner.

May I ask if you tried talking DanW not to leave?

[+JonathanRL 973]

[+hgbn 91]

Well thats just dandy isnt it. I was one the phone with one of CA's members last night and he brought up a good point. If TK was to fold up shop and leave now, we would still keep going. If CA was to fold shop his fan base and word of mouth would drop off then his sale would tank. This site gets 90% of its traffic for the SF1/2 series, which in turn has generated money for TK. How many newbies have came here asking about the games etc and we send them to Thirdwire to get them. We have been free advertising for them for years. What really pisses me off is that we can't even get TK to stop in and say hi, we wanted to do an interview, nada. But the first time we or I say something against the grain, DanW leaves. Here is the kicker, all this talk about this new game on this site is going to to get TK sales anyway. There is no two way street for him at all. There is no scratch his back and I'll scratch yours. All we want is a little communication, does this game progress, does the game have this type of avionics, how will the AI handle jamming and AWACs with the aircraft we have seen? People are tired of getting the same thing. That is why I for example havent been doing much, I'm bored with the game. We are working on the Vipers but I can't get motivated for anything new. Sundowner is another example, he is burned out. ST0RM is the same. I can list more. Yes I want his game to do good, just what's new? Why should we tell people to buy it? I know him and DanW look at the site and I know they are watching this thread. Now TK does not have to say anything at all, that is his right. However A site that spends about $11,000 a year to run and generates money from the fan base should get some common courtesy from the person who the site is mostly built around.

 

I can see it from both sides. Yes it would be great to have TK dropping in to say hi now and then. And give some informations on the newest stuff he implementing and he way he is thinking the game to be..

 

But on the other hand. If TK would appear in here. It would probably end up in a long line of various demands. Why don't you do this and I want this and I want this.... So in a way I can understand TK for not being particular informative.

[JediMaster 451]

Well, that's fine. He doesn't have to post in a thread. He has a FB page, he can post info there. He has tw.com, he can post info on the news page. There are lots of places he COULD post stuff without necessarily subjecting himself to an impromptu Q&A.

 

Now ED has had a problem with what they call "promises" where they say they're going to do something, change their plans, and claim then that they didn't "promise" them. The problem is simply they usually aren't good at differentiating what they definitely WILL do from what they would LIKE to do, so you get confusion.

I still remember the "A-10 DX11" announcement that was later pulled back. It was like 6-7 months before A-10's release when they said it, so you figure "oh, well this close to release it must be imminent". Instead it turned out it wasn't ready and a good year after the beta/preorder there's no sign it will ever be "patched" in. The Nevada terrain was another early claim that was later made into a DLC that was free "for preorders."

 

However, you would think it would be relatively simple to just break these things out into "definites" vs "maybes." The way it is now it seems like TK knows little that is "definite" and almost everything is a "maybe", so he stays silent lest someone accuse him of false advertizing.

Things he could tell us now: Terrain info (basic), list of flyables (he has to know which planes that he's including have cockpits ready), list of AI only (he's shown pics that tells you some of what's in there, but not all), list of new ground/sea/static objects that are done (maybe he has some still WIP, he can NOT mention them), whether any changes were made to how the avionics systems works (whether it applies solely to the F-14 or if it will also back-port to existing planes)...

 

I mean, pics and "trust me it will be good" phrases worked for Steve Jobs, but we're not Applephiles here (well, many of us aren't!) and we'd like to be treated like we have a brain. In fact, I'll go so far as to say I have no problem with TK's products (as limited as they are) but just his marketing/customer interaction. You have a problem, sure, he helps out, but when it comes to the new stuff he's just so tight-lipped. We didn't know ANY of the DLC was specifically coming until it showed up! The campaign customizer was one he could've talked about, for instance. He also could've said "more Hunters, Phantoms, and Skyhawks to be made".

[+Dave 2,319]

What JM said.......great post man.

 

 

[+Stary 2,426]

indeed,

 

dunno about ED's past as I'm quite new to their line of products, but everything regarding Thirdwire -that's 100% spot on. Funny as in my previous post initially I wanted to point out TK's great (I mean great!) fast responses to various technical issues, and zero new product informations. Thanks for that JM!

[Gr.Viper 131]

It's like TK got a collective of anonymous programming elves down there, which follow the general direction, but can never fully explain the concepts and features before shipping.

[squid 21]

hmmm politics ......

 

 

 

I guess there must be some reasoning behind his policies, wonder what it would be ....

Given that for a decade he has been receiving a lot of appreciation and support i'd dare think that it would be only good for business (both his and CAs) to be interviewed in CA. On the other hand i don't know if he has been interviewed anywhere at all ever which would be also confusing as marketing goes.

Strange ....

 

[+paulopanz 2,853]

Well I think Dave is right.

 

A Tomcat has to fly and shoot like a Tomcat. Without avionics upgrades Tk really could realise -at last- Wings over .... Korea: a lot of new amazing jets and big guns.

 

But, as he does not like speak about it, we can only wait and hope for the rabbit comes out Tk's hat or try to make a realistic wish list and send him ....

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

[bTW I still wait for the rabbit (a pony is too big and expensive for my house and my pocket!) ]

[+SkateZilla 49]

You ask for a Pony and you'll get the donkey from Shrek :p

[Teras 67]

Dave is right , JM's post is great

my opinion is the same as Dave's

[+Brain32 265]

No HUD.

No MFD.

Poor cockpit visiblility.

Only a few minutes in afterburner

NO GUNS (...just kidding lol)

etc... all

 

Did you try Silent Hunter 4?

[+malibu43 142]

I think we sometimes over-estimate the power of an internet forum. We post here (and at SimHQ and at the TW forums) over and over and get upset when we don't see results*.

 

Remember, the loudest voice a customer has is the one that comes out of his wallet. If SF2NA doesn't meet your expectations (whether it's destructable carriers, new avionics, a flyable pony, etc...) or the developer hasn't shared enough information for you to know if it's worth your $$$, then hold off on buying it. TK has every right to release whatever he wants. And we have every right to decide to buy it or not. Capitalism at it's finest.

 

Personally, I am leaning toward buying it but am going to wait for a review or something first (thanks for taking one for the team, Pfunk ). If it' really boils down to being equivalent to the MF F-14A over a bland terrain, then maybe I'll pass. If there are enough new features/goodies included to make it worth my $$$ then I'll probably get it.

 

 

 

 

* - Just my own two cents here about requesting from TK things on forums - For every 2 reasonable and well thought out requests for new features, there seems to be at least one request that is totally off the wall and unrealistic. Slightly more advanced radar modes to suit the tomcat. Sure. Sinkable carriers. Yeah that makes sense. Clickable cockpits... Huh? Now you're talking about a different sim/game. F-18's and Fulcrums... Wait - what happened to the F-14 game we were discussing!?!? So I'm not really surprised that some of our requests or ideas get ignored. It would be one thing if TK could stop by CA and get right to the point. But if he has to wade through pages and pages of silliness just to get a few good ideas or some good feedback... (again just my 2 cents)

Edited November 28, 2011 by malibu43

[+SkateZilla 49]

now all we need to do is a new SoCal Map w/ Miramar, have ourselves a Top Gun Campaign.

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,554]

Same as Malibu, I will wait for the first reviews

[Spinners 15,981]

But on the other hand. If TK would appear in here. It would probably end up in a long line of various demands. Why don't you do this and I want this and I want this.... So in a way I can understand TK for not being particular informative.

 

Is the correct answer.

[SFP1Ace 33]

Well that doesn't stop Jason & 777 studios team from a great interaction over at RoF forums...........Communication between developers and the fanbase at it's finest, imho.

[+Stary 2,426]

also Oleg back in the golden days...

[+SkateZilla 49]

TK used to post in the SimHQ SFP1 Sections back in like 2002 or 2003. But everytime he posted something every just bombarded him with requests and stuff.

 

But ThirdWire then vs Thirdwire now is completely different, so....

 

Sans Publisher/Sponsor backing.. Thirdwire is like what 3 or 4 people? i'd rather them people work on the title than sit and post on forums all day.

 

80% of the Modders that have been around since the beginning were beta testers at one point or another.

Edited November 28, 2011 by SkateZilla

[hurc 21]

now all we need to do is a new SoCal Map w/ Miramar, have ourselves a Top Gun Campaign.

 

Funny you should mention that... How about a updated SoCal focused on Red Flag, which I have as WIP ? I'm sure a back-date for a Top Gun ver will be doable.

 

Hurc

[+SupGen 78]

O.K. Probably gonna p@@s alot of people off here. I was really enjoying this thread at first,and I realize I am what some people would consider a newbie. OTH I'm probably older than most of you and did some time in the Infantry(cue the music),so maybe I'm a little more comfortable with being a mushroom(kept in dark, sh@t on),than most of you, too. TK don't have to tell us sh@t. There, I said it. Shoot Me. Nobody here, and Stary was the closest,(why Tomcat), is looking through the correct end of the telescope here. Has TK ever made an SF2 fantasy game? AFIK the answer is a big, fat, no. So, the question none of you are asking is, why,in RL did the Tomcat exist?The short answer is to prevent a Soviet breakout into the North Atlantic by the combined forces of the Soviet Airforce and Navy. Protecting our carrier task forces was a means to this end, not an end in itself. The Soviet strategy was to rush the GIUK gap with a massive quantity of land-based (missle carrying)bomber aircraft and naval surface action groups in as short a time as possible, overwhelm any NATO assets in the area, and cut the vital shipping lanes to the UK. So Lexx, no MiG's based in Scotland, however, a certain UK Phantom DLC? In Scotland? You think? Intruders? Soviet Naval surface action groups? You Think? Multitargetable rader? These things are required to Sim the RL situation both as it was envisioned and asTK has simmed RL before. AS Martin Luthor said, HERE I STAND I CANNOT DO OTHERWISE! You may now let loose with the usual sh@tstorm. Thank you.

[Wrench 9,637]

actually, that was very well put. Might be a good time for some folks to dig into their library and pull out "Red Storm Rising". Or checking into USN/NATO/RN doctrine for the North Atlantic.

 

and again, until we actually SEE the planning maps for the new terrain, will we finaly know exactly where on the ocean we'll be working from. Would be nice to see a real GIUK map, but given the 63% 'perversion of scale' (as I call it)... might be difficult to be done properly.

Again, it's all wait and see.

 

(btw, the Paran/Dhimar campaign on the Desert map could be construed as fantasy, as it ain't a real place)

[+Julhelm 266]

These things are required to Sim the RL situation both as it was envisioned and asTK has simmed RL before. AS Martin Luthor said, HERE I STAND I CANNOT DO OTHERWISE! You may now let loose with the usual sh@tstorm. Thank you.

But that violates the first law of Third Wire sims.

[+SupGen 78]

Alright Wrench, figures it'd be you to catch me out on something.