Venting and Ranting

[+Julhelm 266]

At the very least, he should fix the damned terrain. Seriously. IcelandNA is a riot.

[+Dels 649]

I can only speak for myself, but I agree this sim is heading (or has already headed) for its demise.

 

Following the release of the SF2 versions of the SF1 games, I bought EXP1 for the P-51 and Meteor and I bought EXP2 for the mission editor.

I have bought only 3 DLC's and I am still yet to buy SF2NA.

 

Why? Quite simply, I don't have the time to stuff around continuously updating and adapting my modded installs while still modding.

 

It has taken me quite a while to complete my last few projects mainly because I haven't as much time as I used to. But I can also see my interest in this series slowly waning.

 

Unless the SF2NA problems are fixed I will not buy it. And in the absence of other motivation, updating my C-130's will be my last project.

 

Dels

Edited May 13, 2012 by Dels

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Please note all of these shots were well within parameters against a single non maneuvering sub-sonic Mig-23... a picture speaks a thousand words or in this case just a few:

 

"Whats the f***ing point, the countermeasures are so ridiculously effective that there is no fun in playing anymore"

 

 

Craig

Edited May 14, 2012 by fallenphoenix1986

[+malibu43 142]

I agree with others that SF Tuna has an unfinished feel to it and doesn't seem worth $30 to me. The thing ist hat the stuff that feels unfinished to me aren't new features that I sas looking for - its all stuff thats been in the previous titles that should have been easy to include (more campaigns, more mission types and target areas, better Hawkey voice overs). Obviously the new terrain is a disappointment as well.

 

As far as I'm concerned, modders have been providing the content for this series for a while, and TK has been providing and updating the engine. However its been clear the last couple of years that that is not how TK sees it or wants it to be moving forward. This is shown both by his locking out previously moddable features, his disinterest in expanding on the capabilities of the engine, and interest in possibly even making the game even easier (no key press required to lower tail hook). So it would seem that as far as this community is concerned, TK may not have much to interest us moving forward.

 

@ Spinners - I just did the same thing, looking to LOMAC/FC2 as an alternative. I also still think SF2 meets my needs better, but you should make sure to try the Flaming Cliffs 2 addon with LOMAC. It's a huge improvement and makes the competition much closer. Certainly not as much diversity though, and not as good graphically if you use Stary's stuff in SF2.

Edited May 14, 2012 by malibu43

[+Dave 2,322]

Please note all of these shots were well within parameters against a single non maneuvering sub-sonic Mig-23... a picture speaks a thousand words or in this case just a few:

 

"Whats the f***ing point, the countermeasures are so ridiculously effective that there is no fun in playing anymore"

 

 

Craig

 

Craig I think the law of probability got you there. I have had that happen to me too. However I have had in between and the total opposite. I think TK really made the missile parameters a lot more realistic. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you. Its not a game defect, its real life. They called the AIM-7 the "Great White Hope", and I am sure no explanation is needed there. Right now the AIM-9M-9 and the AIM-9X are IR counter measures proof. The early AIM-9L/M had a chance of getting spoofed is the amount of IR flares released was high enough. It would overwhelm the seekers filters...

[+Dave 2,322]

Spinner and Malibu

 

While I like LOMAC, A-10C DCS is freakin' awesome. The learning curve is huge but very rewarding.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

As far as I'm concerned, modders have been providing the content for this series for a while, and TK has been providing and updating the engine. However its been clear the last couple of years that that is not how TK sees it.

 

This is how I've approached the sim. I've always loved it for it's simplicity and the fact that it always has been a work in progress and I figured the DLC business model was the inevitable way of TW. Thing is, I've not once bought this sim for the aircraft. TW provided us the easel for us to do whatever we wanted and the community responded by developing some brilliant wares. With the locking out of specific, integral elements of the game, this, to me in any case, appears like there are now caveats on how we use said easel. And I get it, I mean I understand TW did this as a justifiable response to some pilfering of their hard work, but the solution has been game changing. I pretty much only use community made aircraft now, especially when modding, since their ease of use trumps using stock or DLC for my needs.

 

There have been some sorely needed updating to particular elements to this series, especially the terrains. If you're not convinced, play some Hawx, then come back to our stock terrains. And while there have been other elements that have been added to make this a more rounded sim offering over time, updated visuals and audio, mission editor, and so on, multiplayer, like it or not, is going to continually be the 800 pound gorilla in the room (well, one of them) and adding a token death match or versus mode simply won't cut it. Fighter Ace ran an INCREDIBLE multiplayer experience for more than 10 years on an engine that, graphically at least, wouldn't have seemed out of place on a SNES. It was proof that a great multiplayer experience wasn't intrinsically linked to a great graphical engine, but since the focus has been on the lone wolf since the beginning of the second generation, the visual elements play a much greater role in creating atmosphere and keeping players interest in game. So on this basis, I've felt TW switching their attention to tablets and relegating these much needed upgrades to the bench for the foreseeable future was a bad decision. But the thing is, smart phones and tablets have exploded over the past 5 years, so much so that relatively little attention by these users can still translate into high sales numbers by the sheer number of people it could be exposed to. If this increases TW's revenue streams by a higher or more consistent income or otherwise allows them to expand their business, then I welcome it. Even if this proves to be the end of the series as we know it, the community will run with it for years to come. Look at examples such as The Babylon 5 Project or Wing Commander Darkest Dawn, both mods using Freespace SCP, but a game that's been around 13 years no less.

[+SupGen 79]

Okay, obviously going to get the crap beat out of me here, but...A) Before I get started, don't any body even think about calling me a "fan boi", I served in the g## d###ed Army Infantry back in the 70's-in Alaska-in a leg unit. I ain't a fan boi of s###. However, I'm finding the negative energy spiral that exists on this thread pretty funny. B) Old Diego, you are an (the?) old hand here, and I respect and appreciate everything you've done to add to this sim but, when you say people who post at ThirdWire are directed here, why do you think that is? It's because the guys with the answers are here. I don't recall anyone ever saying "uh, TK, uh you know, we'd appreciate if you didn't do that, cause, you know, we're tired of answering questions"? Far from not appreciating the people here, I think he relies on them. Ditto for him not doing things that some of the guys here do in a "couple of hours." Three guys vs. how many? C) Wish lists? C'mon, who the f### ever gets what they want? Ya know what? That would actually be me. I've got Tomcats that can lock up six targets at once, no TW A-6's but HomeFries mod for the stock ones with the Razbaam pits pthbbt, who needs stock?D) Which brings me to another point, "locking up the lods". When I fly in NA I don't fly the TW Cat I fly one of the TMF Tomcats. It's a better plane and Olie didn't need the TW lods to make it. The F14A dll. that came as part of NA though, is what allowed Olie's dream to come to fruition.E) Bugs. Not pointing any fingers, but, check out some of the posts in this thread alone, imagine if you were trying to write thousands or millions of lines of code? Bring on the proofreaders! F) Lastly,(thank god, right?) multiplayer. WTF? Ever play multi in Aces High? Turned me off that forever. A hundred a##holes flying around shooting anything that moves for the points. Last I checked, there are no points given in RL air combat. One of the things that attracted me to SF2 was just that, the AI may be dumb,(but getting smarter every day) but they won't stab you in the back. A structured, semi-realistic air combat enviornment. Alright, rant over for now.(Dave did say to rant, didn't he?).

[+malibu43 142]

Spinner and Malibu

 

While I like LOMAC, A-10C DCS is freakin' awesome. The learning curve is huge but very rewarding.

 

I hear ya. I just wish I had time for any learning curve at all right now. I have been keeping my eyes on FC3 (or at least the threads about it). DCS A-10C world and graphics with FC2 avionics... hmmmmm....

[+Dave 2,322]

Last I checked, there are no points given in RL air combat.

 

Are you saying there is no points for 2nd best............... (Yes I went there) I wonder who will get it. AS for your rant SupGen, that is what this thread is for.

[+Stary 2,427]

Three guys vs. how many?

Then I say again "hire more, some students or so (as it works here in Europe just fine)"

 

Bugs. Not pointing any fingers, but, check out some of the posts in this thread alone, imagine if you were trying to write thousands or millions of lines of code? Bring on the proofreaders!

(makes Willy Wonka face here) So TK starts writing the code from scratch everytime he makes new SF2 release? Interesting... Tell me then why it still does feel I am playing EAW over and over again

 

Which brings me to another point, "locking up the lods". When I fly in NA I don't fly the TW Cat I fly one of the TMF Tomcats. It's a better plane and Olie didn't need the TW lods to make it.

Terrain LODs SupGen, these would help us understand the way new terrain engine works AKA how to build WORKING new terrain (mine test ones do not work as I expect them)

 

 

 

See that part I wrote about EAW? The classic sim TK had huge part in bringing to life? Am I the only one who feels SF2 after all these years still has that gameplay scheme we know for 14 years (EAW player since 1998... for years!)

One of the biggest problems with SF series, bugs aside is the fact Thirdwire's concept of gameplay has not evolved a bit from what EAW had. Same feeling to it, similar missions layout, similar, now in 2012 a joke approach to ground/sea warfare (remember tank battles in other 1998 title Janes' WW2 Fighters?) I could go on and on but prove me gameplay differs from ~1996 or so founding concept of playability TK had when he went to pick up and fix EAW?

Oh, EAW had those cute little sprite guys running around from emergency landed Liberators, destroyed halftracks or buzzed churches, so point for 1998 title :grim:

...not to mention collidable destroyable 3D objects populating tiles. Talk about evolution. Ohhhh yes, ejecting pilots hinging on their parachutes. The thing that is sooo hard to implement in 2012 title!!!

 

As for mobile game(s)... Does anyone really believes the man will develop new (as in another) engine for them with better terrains than PC DirectX 10/11 2012 titles of his have? IF the answer is no -then good luck on mobile market

Edited May 14, 2012 by Stary

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

multiplayer. WTF? Ever play multi in Aces High? Turned me off that forever.

 

This is precisely why I used Fighter Ace and it's dynamic multiplayer battlefields with it's objectives, it's strategic nodes and resources (flying transports to resupply FOBs with resources allowing other players to operate from them = awesome!). Aces High with it's bog-standard deathmatch style games can be just horrible at times. Get some squaddies in and Fighter Ace was a great game. Pity.

[Gr.Viper 131]

remember tank battles in other 1998 title Janes' WW2 Fighters?

Remember CAS in Mig Alley where the entire formation would go down on a target group, as opposed to high hippies maaaybe attacking the tanks if they recall what their primary target is?

Remember manuals so detailed you needed an evening to read them, filled to the brim with gameplay explanations and historical trivia? As opposed to third-party forum threads providing step by step guides on basic missile use? As opposed to seeing rows of stats and still guessing, which AI pilot won't be a complete idiot in the upcoming mission?

 

Remember patch notes?

[+Stary 2,427]

Gr.Viper, you got me...

 

Mig Alley... MAN I'd pay 50 bucks for updated working version! Like what BDG guys did to BOB2!

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Dave I get that ECM would have played a signifficant role in an all out WWIII scenario and made life a tad frustrating, however out of the last 46 missiles I've fired (since I atarted counting...) I've had two hits and one kill. I went up with a flight of four F-4's the other night every one of us launched everything we had... not a scratch on the Ruskies.... we lost three to the four AA-7's they launched...... If it really was a 1:46 chance of getting a hit vs a 3:4 chance of being killed the manned fighter would have been canned decades ago, that or we'd have seen the return of the all gun armed fighter.

 

Time to join an A-7 or Bucaneer squadron me thinks....

 

 

Craig

[macelena 1,070]

It is weird that you are having that. I put the settings on hard, yet both in campaign and single missions, one out of four AIM-7F launched from F-4Js hits a "hard" target, that being a bomber loaded with ECMs, and against MiGs is just as effective as it was. Something i found quite effective against bombers is salvo launching, but your description of the trouble seems a different problem

[+Stary 2,427]

I don't wanna sound more negative than I already am at the moment, but there is Mig-21 coming to DCS World and looks this from inside:

 

 

The screen above shows in my opinion the biggest problem TW sims will face in following months -imagine all the HQ modding groups from FSX moving in to make flyable 60s-70s jets in DCS

 

not to mention that in my opinion that screen should have been taken in SF2 months ago -with soft dynamic cockpit shadows cast onto DLC Thirdwire Mig-21bis flying over fast and nice new terrain engine*

 

*fast and nice new terrain engine -the mythical landmass said to exist beyond evil land of Iceland, obviously yet to be discovered by expedition from Austin, TX

[+Julhelm 266]

lol Stary. Keep hoping. Judging from the latest posts TK seems more intent on further pissing on his core audience.

[+Stary 2,427]

I never wrote anything about hoping Jules, left my hopes burned onto DVD when Exp2 came out

[+Julhelm 266]

It really is stupid, this stating of "we don't do sims". ORLY?

[+Stary 2,427]

TK is right, it's more and more logic puzzle game titled "what new patch will f-up and what will be broken again"

[FastCargo 412]

The line between a game and a sim will always be blurry and dependent on the individual. As you move from one to the other, all you get is an increasing probability that more people agree which it is.

 

If the SF series comes to an end, that's fine...it has had a pretty good run. But, from what I've seen of other sims, I have not seen anything that balances playability verses realism, combined with modability and variety of third party content of the SF series. Everyone talks a big game of how much other sims can do...yet, how large is the third party content of any air combat sims? There are some beautiful aircraft and cockpits out there for other sims...but how many? Any more than 10 for a particular sim?

 

I'm seriously asking...because from what I see, there isn't a whole lot.

 

Also, with increasing complexity and fidelity of a game engine, it also usually means increasing fidelity of the third party content to keep up. Which increases the time and effort involved. Just how many epic looking mods of various games have never made it out because the technology outstripped the modder's energy. Hell, we've seen it here with the Mig Alley mod, and that was what folks here admit is a slow advancing engine, and that was for a conflict that doesn't have a EM warfare enviroment.

 

In some ways, if the SF series comes to an end, I'll be happier about it.

 

It means that any future mods I make will always be compatible with the latest patch.

[+malibu43 142]

FC Cargo's got a good point. If TK stops updating the SF engine it doesn't mean we all have to uninstall it. If we know TK doesn't want to take the game the direction we want it, it would probably be better that it's left alone.

 

I think about patching when I add mods right now. I think about patching when I decide what mods to make. Maybe a stable game version will encourage folks to (or give them the time to) dig deep under the hood again.

Edited May 14, 2012 by malibu43

[+ojcar 157]

I'm REALLY tired of all the patching-reinstalling-mods-testing-the-whole-thing-and-discover-more-and-more-things-broken.... so my last patch is the Beta October 2011. I have not buy the NA game (not until a really good patch comes to fix a lot of things).

 

On the other hand I'm pretty satisfied with FE2. It hasn't been patched for ages. It has some (bearable) bugs, but it's a pretty solid game to play and mod with. So I think the best thing could be a new patch fixing the more unforgivable bugs and then the end of the series. Modders can expand the game content for ages. Who needs official expansions?

[+whiteknight06604 934]

@ojcar It would be nice if some of the modders who are frustrated with the current affairs of SF2-SF2 NA would temporarly migrate to FE2 and lend a hand to the 3-4 people who have kept that game alive and well.