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Just do me a favor and debate the subject and not each other. No personal attacks.

 

Topic: Thirdwire and the Future.

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Here's my take on the subject:

 

By Christmas we'll get EXP3 (must buy for me, unless it's totally f&$d up), and the tablet/mobile game next spring. I'm not gonna buy the latter, but still I hope TK will make a nice profit off it. So that he can continue to improve SF series gameplay wise.

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For me, this topic have two sides.

 

The first is that it seems flight games in general are on the rise again, and SF and in most respects SF2 are products of a generation where Flight Games and Simulators was pretty much absent from the market, especially after Microsoft declared they would no longer work on Flight Simulator titles and shut down the studio.

 

That does not mean TW will meet a demise soon, as I think the current model works out decent. I say decent, because he will probably have to open his arms more to the community, or make a drastic increase the value of the product (and with that probably also the price). If he indeed starts with tablet games and such, as he has hinted at, I doubt their income would go towards the SF series. The funny thing is, I cannot make up my mind if a publisher would be good or bad for TK. He obviously needs a little push off his cushion and get back into the running. I doubt DCS and Jet Thunder will wake him up enough for this.

 

This all said, I doubt we will ever see a SF3.

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This all said, I doubt we will ever see a SF3.

same here, I still think Expansion pack 3 with Mirage F1 will be released this year, followed by mobile/tablet title(s) BUT I think expansion pack that revolves around one single aircraft (said Mirage) is quite a deal breaker for alot of customers. That more smells like more advanced DLC to me. Remember, Thirdwire planes do not have 6-axis clickable nextgen cockpits, real life avionics or systems operations etc like other sims (I use Flamming Cliffs 2 as the closest of titles to Thirdwire ones for comparisions purposes)

also do we really need another expansion pack for GermanyCE map? The reason I ask is that map does look OLD. And no, I don't think Thirdwire's new reworked GermanyCE map (or any other map) is anything but a dream. Which kinda sucks given how undeveloped and crude the so called "new" terrain engine is :this:

 

and then is that whole "locking of Cats contents" issue I won't step into at the moment

Edited by Stary
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BUT I think expansion pack that revolves around one single aircraft (said Mirage)

 

I seem to remember TK saying he would add one popular and one less popular aircraft from the vote per DLC

 

If true, we will be getting Mirage and Ouragegon / Super Mystere

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All I have to say is that while I really like the cool new features in SF2NA... the game has a seriously unfinished feel to it. I was and am frustrated with the lack of developer support/interest following the release of the game. It felt like he just dropped it on us.. said here ya go... and walked away. I expect more customer service/ dialogue I also expect thirdwire to take the time to listen to questions asked by the modding community and provide some answers regarding the new terrain engine and other new features.

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The balance is gone. No longer is Thirdwire focused on fixing the content that was offered in SF:P1. For those of you who remember what was broken in the first release and fixed in the long awaited patch, who even recalls what was not fixed? Ever wonder why those FAC sound files were hardly even touched? Where is Snoopy anyway? There was a lot promised on that game box. Instead we got a molasses slow series of features that never worked out of the box after that. From that first patch to the pay-to-beta-test situation that exists now, all I've heard are the same lame excuses - we're a small shop, not my idea of fun, too difficult to implement etc. There use to exist a friendly co-existence between modding and TK. In the beginning the modding was unofficially smiled upon and even supported. I assumed it was a "reward" for sticking by the game. Slowly the help from TK became few and far between. Lately it has grown into a down right lock out. I still remember the box for WoV actually claiming the huge modding community as a reason to make the purchase. How far we've come. Anyone with a question or problem asks on the Thirdwire forums and is quickly sent to this community. If CA shut its doors today, TK would be making Angry Fighters tomorrow morning. I wonder sometimes if TK wasn't just stringing this community along over the years. Each one of us holding out for our personal wish list while he held on to those now famous excuses.

 

It wasn't until I really stepped back did I see how much of a fool I was for slipping dollar bills into his g-string that I was never going to get my personal wish list. The sad part is neither will any of you. Instead I keep reading excuses for TK for not fixing things, for not updating the terrain or for not doing what his customers are asking for. For those that have been around since day one - raise your hands if you think the terrain in NA was the major breakthrough you envisioned or a one off that can be easily outdone by our usual terrain artists? What a waste of effort on his part. Its not even finished - no shorelines, some islands are still blocks and not by any stretch of the imagination new technology - maybe new to us but not worth the effort.

 

I see the end of this symbiotic relationship with this last release. Last nail in the coffin if you ask me. When modders are angry with you for killing their babies, you have killed their idea of fun. For those who feel that everything is fine in SF land, keep worshiping at the TK altar and keep your wallets open but don't say you haven't been warned.

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Could'nt of put it better myself Diego, I agree 100%.

Edited by Sundowner
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same here, I still think Expansion pack 3 with Mirage F1 will be released this year, followed by mobile/tablet title(s) BUT I think expansion pack that revolves around one single aircraft (said Mirage) is quite a deal breaker for alot of customers. That more smells like more advanced DLC to me. Remember, Thirdwire planes do not have 6-axis clickable nextgen cockpits, real life avionics or systems operations etc like other sims (I use Flamming Cliffs 2 as the closest of titles to Thirdwire ones for comparisions purposes)

also do we really need another expansion pack for GermanyCE map? The reason I ask is that map does look OLD. And no, I don't think Thirdwire's new reworked GermanyCE map (or any other map) is anything but a dream. Which kinda sucks given how undeveloped and crude the so called "new" terrain engine is :this:

 

and then is that whole "locking of Cats contents" issue I won't step into at the moment

 

I thought that Exp3 is for SF2/Desert map and not the GermanyCE one? But yeah, locking out shader .fx files & .lst files seems uncalled for...

 

Anyway we need to plan a contingency (i.e breaking in to TW oficces in Austin, TX, to steal the source code) in case TK gives up on SF series in the future. :grin:

Edited by SFP1Ace

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Sadly Diego is 100% right, the balance is gone for me. I don't think it's been there past several years as I look at it now

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One other thought in relation to my first post regarding developer support- TK stated that this title has the highest sales figures of any TW product to date.. That being the case why would the man not take the time to engage his customers in discussion. Bad business model.

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a one off that can be easily outdone by our usual terrain artists?

Not now, after the sample lods got locked...

I have a theory that TW extractor simply checks file extensions to see what to ignore. Since the terrain is LODs, it gets shoved aside like the aircraft models. There's no deep meaning or business decision, they just can't be bothered to code a smarter extractor or re-label the files.

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the future of this title is not in another DLC plane

(yes maybe F-16 could be popular enough to pay for its own costs)

 

the future is not in another theatre - really what we get from NA ? is it realy THAT good

to be called another title?

 

the future is in people who wants to fly it (or play it)

and why the people would do that?

they will know that this title simulate the flight that good

or they could fly against or with another pilots = multiplayer

 

we dont have multiplayer...realy? today without multiplayer?

 

and how many pilots on earth (Yes I am talking about few million people who could be interested)

know anything about SF2? I feel like I am the only one from our country (one of six million people)

 

HOW to tell another people that we have something interesting here? that is the question!

 

so you have the planes modeled visually and physically very well

you have AI which can fly it (if you accept the pros and cons of the game engine)

you have dynamic campaign generator!!!

 

you dont have good graphic engine

you dont have good world where to fly

you dont have the STORY (I am the pilot in a campaign and I want to survive to fly another day)

 

the community is a bunch of individuals flying their modded individual titles.

You need the masses (a lot of users) to continue this business

 

you can start your DLC business if you have few thousands core users but it looks like our community

have about 5000 members max

 

this is the only title which dont need a crack if I could say. I can download exe file instal on my computer and send the file to my buddy to install it too.

WHY? TK need to implement something to prevent this and his sales could double.

 

As you can see I dont have answers just some questions :-)

 

Monty CZ

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Not now, after the sample lods got locked...

 

I meant what could be done visually with the old terrain engine vs the new engine. See Gerwin's Iceland effort to get a better idea of what I meant. To your point, locking the LODs is an idiotic move and does not keep anyone from accessing the contents. It only keeps honest people honest and honest modders from creating the free visual marketing Thirdwire exists on.

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I dont think TK looses that many sales due to Piracy honestly (depending on how much Insky pirates ^^). I pirated VoW and WoE back in the days, that got me buying all the following games and stuck with the series ever since. With todays overzealous anti-piracy measures, no DRM is a bonus if you ask me.

 

I do however agree that if TK wants the series to survive after Expansion Pack 3, Multiplayer is a necessity.

 

And yes, Diego has alot of valid points. I stick with SF2 because it is the best possibility for me atm to get a Swedish Flight Game. Ever wonder who I made TSF for?

Myself more then anybody. That I can share it with you guys and the Swedish Flight Community is just a very awesome bonus.

Edited by JonathanRL

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as for me i stick to the SF2/E/V/I just for the fun of moding , as long as i still have fun with it , but in general i think Old Diego is right especialy with the release of SF2NA TK disappointed so many of us that where looking for some improvments in terrain

 

as for the future , i dont think that there will be any if TK continuous like this

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Well said Diego.

 

Unfortunately, I think the whole moving to tablets thing is a major miscalculation on the part of TK. He's probably looked at X-Plane and wants a piece of the pie, but X-Plane has a substantially bigger fanbase and marketing.

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For me, what makes SF2 worth it, is the people.

 

You people who create models, terrains, campaigns and other things - I think SF is a game that heavily relies on its patrons and open access to keep it interesting and afloat.

 

There are 2 markets - like the model kit market;

- Casual (usually younger) players who were not aware of the huge community, buy it expecting the vanilla product.

- More experienced, people who build things and strive to push it further and further and add to it.

 

The latter is what really got me hooked; that a wide mix of people from a wide mix of countries give up a great deal of their own time free-o-charge to create a great deal of content for them and (inportantly) others to enjoy.

Especially a few brit airmen on ops atm x)

 

If TK gives up the older situation of supporting/working with the community then thats his perogative... I'd imagine it'd be shooting himself in the boot, but maybe he's just gunning for the casual market now?

 

 

Its the lads and ladys on here that make SF worth it, not TK; but it is his business and income, its for him to decide on the future; for better or worse.

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Its the lads and ladys on here that make SF worth it...

 

Amen to that brother! :clapping: :clapping:

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Well said Diego.

 

Unfortunately, I think the whole moving to tablets thing is a major miscalculation on the part of TK. He's probably looked at X-Plane and wants a piece of the pie, but X-Plane has a substantially bigger fanbase and marketing.

Also check the Mobile X-Plane marketing, this is a quote from their page:

 

Each of these mobile applications have a flight model that is about 95% as accurate as the one used by the desktop simulator–that is, 95% as accurate as the simulator currently being used by companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and NASA. They also have many of the same weather, sky, and time conditions available. (The Android app’s flight model is closer to 85% as accurate as the desktop sim, which isn’t bad considering it uses only a tiny fraction of the device’s CPU.)

 

Thy boast realism and complexity, on the other hand TK will probably market his with:

 

"Just one button needed! No annoying option set-ups!"

 

Like I said I'm not into swtichology either, heck LockOn v1.0 was borderline too much for me to bother with, that's why I liked SF/SF2 but really a child can handle SF2 options in 5mins like a "pro" and he worries about complexity???

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Streakeagle's thoughtful thread 'Competition for SF series' over at Third Wire got me wondering about what to (possibly) jump to if the end is nigh.

 

Out of curiosity, I bought and installed Lock-On (CD version - £5) this morning and after four 'flights' before uninstalling. I've tried it before but my PC was a bit weak back in 2008 but I was quite excited to buy it so cheap. However, it was a huge disappointment. Perhaps I've been enjoying SF too long to adapt but I really didn't find the options very intuitive and gave up.

 

Any thoughts on what to try next?

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I too have to agree with Diego.

 

I've been a very vocal opponent of the way the TW series has gone, but yet still purchased the releases in the hopes something would have gotten better. That ended for me with SF:NA. I did not purchase it and I seriously doubt I will until some serious changes are made. I'm sick of hearing how poor he is and how it's too difficult to add new things that the 3rd party modders seem to figure out in hours.

 

Over the past 6 months, my time in SF2 has been rather short. It no longer brings much interest as without the mods, it's dull and solitary. MP would bring so much life to the sim.

 

TK does not give two shakes about what we think here. I think it's time for me to spend my time & $$ elsewhere.

Edited by ST0RM
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As it stands right now I want him to patch SF2:NA to fix the last few bugs, then I will be happy. I just wish TK was more open on what he is thinking so we can maybe all put the panic switch down or stop the speculation. Some answers would be nice. We might be all out in left field and don't know it. But without answers from him, here is where we are.

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