The future of SF?

[Wrench 9,846]

And.. still $27 after all these years. Diverted to AI plane pack instead and gonna save up a bit!

 

the 2 AI planes DLCs are awesome!!  (read: S-99 = Bf-109G)

plus the F-104A and C, and the SU-9.  I think, both are well worth the money!!

[stuntman 170]

the 2 AI planes DLCs are awesome!!  (read: S-99 = Bf-109G)

plus the F-104A and C, and the SU-9.  I think, both are well worth the money!!

I totally agree. When I see all the nice exclusive planes he put in the android apps, plus the new ones we have nowin sf dogfight, it s a shame they were not sold in new dlc

[Z09SS 21]

the 2 AI planes DLCs are awesome!!  (read: S-99 = Bf-109G)

plus the F-104A and C, and the SU-9.  I think, both are well worth the money!!

 

I agree as well, paid for them too!

 

Heck, I paid for every DLC just to keep him interested... alas.

[Do335 382]

Yeah me 3. Mostly for the S-99/Bf-109, can't believe I missed it.

[Wrench 9,846]

note to self:

 

buy the F-4N DLC. never go that one!!

[+Piecemeal 450]

Speaking of... should I grab First Eagles while it's still available in light of future WW2 builds? hmmm...

 

I'm not one to take chances, so I'm going to top up on Paypal next Friday and download all the SF2 series and DLCs that I lost recently. Personally, if I were you I'd do the same and grab FE while it's still there. We'd be kicking ourselves if they were taken down.

[+Stary 2,427]

He took too long for NA. SF2--2009, SF2NA--2012? Way too long.

 

The reason for TK's SF2 failure can be summed up in 2 letters: TK.

He does things his way even when they're not working. He heard what we wanted and came up with umpteen reasons why they couldn't be done. The removal of MP was a major mistake. The fact that MP for SF1 still works means he could've just kept it. It was damned limited but it worked.

 

JM as usually nailed it!

 

yeah it all comes to TK in the end after all, and as I once said (which cost me the FB friendship) he's stubborn and can't be talked into fixing this or that. He does what he wants -now apparently he has time and resources to implement MP in Android system

 

funny as he never got to implement say RakNet to SF2

[+Jimbib 746]

On a slightly different note, the TW forums are back up...

[Do335 382]

hmmm.. You guys probably have long dealings and frustrations with TK but I'm not that sure, because there're plethora of game devs who don't care much about customer input. They have a point since the customers don't always know what they want. I think the thing with SF is the concept of "Lite" doesn't really register. You have games and you have sims but what exactly is sim-Lite. The planes needs cockpits (sim) but no HUD culling (game). There're plenty of AG munition types (sim) but little avionics support (game). AA missiles need switchology and launch parameters (sim) but there're no DLZ launch cues (game). You can run out of fuel (sim) but there's no air refueling (game). There's this awesome dynamic campaign engine (sim) but it's mostly hidden in the background (game). The FMs are mostly solid (sim) but you lack trimming support and realistic sounds to present an immersive in-flight feel (game). etc etc.

 

Dedicated players have long been wanting sim features apparently. TK however seems just intent on sort of the in-between position. Maybe he has a vision and insisted on sticking with it ever since but then SF could be flawed from the start. For myself it's taken me this long to realize what's great about SF and take hold of it but I'm not even your typical western middle-class gamer who's already flooded to other supported games long before.  Perhaps TK has finally thought it out and going for the "game" route with the mobile games which is good (for his business).

 

On a slightly different note, the TW forums are back up...

woh I thought it's lost for sure. The infos are back!!!

[macelena 1,070]

For what i am concerned, i liked the game the way it was. Any improvement was pretty much welcome, but i didn´t feel like the balance between game and simulator was wrong. An even wider variety of stock aircraft and campaigns would have been awesome, but to be honest, pretty much doable with mods. If all the stuff he released for tablet games was released for PC as AI only, and perhaps integrated in the campaigns i would have asked for nothing else. 

[+streakeagle 871]

The long lost forums are back.

[FastCargo 412]

In my last PM to TK, I relayed the information about the Facebook page with links to the pirated PC games. He thanked me for it, but also relayed that it was another reason they were happy not to be working on PC these days.

 

Now, that pretty much is the wording he used. Based on the rearranging of the ThirdWire page, it appears that the focus is now exclusively on mobile. Obviously, he isn't working on PC right now or at least in the near future. As for the long term future...who knows.

 

What does this mean for the SF community? First, it means for at least the near term, the complaint about the constant flow of patches is probably moot. Any mods you make now will probably continue to work for a few years. Second, it also means there probably isn't a major change to the engine coming from TK for a while, if ever. So, don't whine here if there is something the engine doesn't do that you want it to...whining here will not change anything at ThirdWire.

 

Now, as far as policy regarding the manipulation of the game engine by people other than ThirdWire (ie hacking). From past correspondence with TK about the issue, he seems to have no problem with it, obviously cautioning that future 'patches' could break previous mods.

 

But let's make a few things clear. First, this specifically means that the engine is NOT open source. If there are modifications performed, those modified files will not be distributed here. If you want to create a 'patch' that modifies an end user's legitimately purchased game, it must be understood by all parties that there is no warranties implied by anyone and that it is very, VERY clear what those patches do.

 

Second, the ThirdWire series is NOT considered abandonware. Period. The links to purchase the games still exist on the TW site and still are functional. Do not be the person that attempts to distribute core files on the mistaken belief that the game is abandonware. Even if those links go away in the future, it is not to be assumed that the PC game has been abandoned, especially if ThirdWire still exists as an gaming company.

 

In short, don't be stupid...it just creates more paperwork.

 

FC

[+paulopanz 2,876]

Well I still can't figure how someone (TK) can decide to completely close the PC section of his enterprise, with still products on sale, that could continue to produce money at little effort.

To be sure not to sell anymore his PC games he put them aside from the store and only after some reserch can be reached.

It's like he hate them and of course us, his previous life costumers and supporters ....

Very, very strange,

 

We could do as Daidalos team for IL-2 1946 or Team Fusion for IL-2 Cliffs of Dover and develop this game finally our way ......

 

If TK could be a normal person I think I should be happy.

The money he like so much could continue to flow without any effort ......

[+Stary 2,427]

"they were happy not to be working on PC these days" is a very interesting choice of words indeed FC

[Stratos 3,188]

 

We could do as Daidalos team for IL-2 1946 or Team Fusion for IL-2 Cliffs of Dover and develop this game finally our way ......

 

 

I agree, but doubt It will happen. TK doesn't care If we work on the exes If we don't share his content (have the written permission for that, from TK himself). So wecan and should create patches that worth nothing without the legally purchased games but that can add new features If you own the games, this way we can add things without breaking TK will.

[Do335 382]

I don't believe it will happen to SF either....

 

But I think it is good spirit anyway. Personally I've stopped playing games that can't be modded....

Edited April 7, 2015 by Do335

[+paulopanz 2,876]

So wecan and should create patches that worth nothing without the legally purchased games but that can add new features If you own the games, this way we can add things without breaking TK will.

 

This is, as far I know, what Daidalos or Team fusion do ....

[Stratos 3,188]

This is, as far I know, what Daidalos or Team fusion do ....

 

Of course, but AFAIK those guys have avves to the code, and we don't. So our only chance (as we already asked for the code and got no answer) is to hack the exe ourselves. If we have someone capble of doing will be great, If not we can try to find someone that can do that kind of work.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Maybe TK would be interested in a licencing type arrangement for the continuation of the PC games. Who's got the money, time and brains to take them over? Not I . Maybe some crowd funding potential for the right person.

[Stratos 3,188]

Maybe TK would be interested in a licencing type arrangement for the continuation of the PC games. Who's got the money, time and brains to take them over? Not I . Maybe some crowd funding potential for the right person.

 

Maybe we can ask, but seeing how he ask for thousands of dollars to add simple features I fear he will ask for a huge amount of money for such development. What we can try maybe is a Team Daidalos arrangement, as said before, but I doubt he will agree. Also Team Daidalos has coders cause they added features not included before like taxiing to the runway, new code for bombs, etc. Do we have something like this?

 

We will need a vocal to ask that.

[ZoltanTheHun 101]

Hi guys, I have never written to this forum before, but I actively followed it for the last few months. I purchased Wings over Europe from Steam in last November when it was on sale for 5 Euros or 1 Euro maybe. I did not expect much from the game, especially because it had only 60% of positive reviews. However this game made me fell in love with the series. I was continuously playing the game for months now, and I know that it has a lot of limitations, yet, I think that it is on par with the current best simulators on the PC market, especially if you have a merged install for SF2. It might not be the most accurate sim out there, but one of the most entertaining and hack, you can basically fly anything in this game. Since I started to play the game I subscribed to this site, and I purchasedall SF2 games and expansions aside from the DSL from TKs website. I planned to purchase 1 game a month, but last month I was so addicted that I grabbed almost everything I wanted. And I am glad I did because I am afraid the game will disappear from the TK store sooner or later, a thing which I did not expect before.

 

To start the more serious stuff, let me say that TK is a strange company. This is, because they chase a very interesting strategy. Let's just see a couple of questions about the whole series. Like can anyone wonder that Strike Fighters do not make any sales if the franchise is virtually unavailable? I didn't know about the franchise, though I love flightsims, and I bumped into it accidentally during a Steam sale. And how many more people like that can be there? I am sure if I have heard about a game simulation the mighty F14 I would have bought it in an instant. But even with googleing, it is very difficult to find the game.  And it is not just that. One could say that it is pirates who killed the game, but hey, you know what? It is difficult to find even pirated copies. And I just don't get why on Earth this is not on GoG and Steam, where during the sales it could generate revenue easily for TK, without too much extra effort. I am really glad of the development of SF2:NA, because it is really an excellent game, though it has its issues... ,  but I would like to ask TK, what did he expect with that game? How did he expect sales if there is no news getting out about it? Was he solely developing for the combatace forum and maybe to the fellows on SimHQ? If he is not interested in getting any money from the game, why does he keep it closed sourced? Is this new website a joke?

 

I would like to see TK developing a new entry to the series... and I am sure if he would make it more open, if community could code to it(I could do), it could be really popular. And if it had multiplayer and a good modding framework like a support for SteamWorkshop, I am sure, it wouldn't be a problem to get good sales. Not the enormous revenues he might have reached on mobiles, but he could get the money. The mobile games are horrible unfortunately, and I get that there is the money now, and that it is important. I wholly agree. But I have concerns about the long term success there... And even if that it is a success, the PC series shouldn't die. It is unique. it is the proper legacy of the old Jane's games, and it could be more. But I clearly feel that it is not something that TK was ever aiming for. 

[+gerwin 451]

I agree, but doubt It will happen. TK doesn't care If we work on the exes If we don't share his content (have the written permission for that, from TK himself). So wecan and should create patches that worth nothing without the legally purchased games but that can add new features If you own the games, this way we can add things without breaking TK will.

 

For your information;

 

AFAIK: A simulation is about book-keeping all the game data every tick. Even with the source it is not an easy task to do this. Fortunately, In the source all structures are named and can easily be expanded upon. Once compiled to an executable all such structures+procedures lose their name and are tied to fixed memory offsets. Writing beyond that range gets you in the memory range of another structure. This makes it very hard to add a feature to the engine without the source. Much harder then disabling a feature, like CD checks for example.

One typical thing is that SF uses a lot of DLL's to hold game code.

 

There are only few projects I know that have reverse engineered a game exe back to comfortable C, or the more primitive ASM code, thus allowing for expanding of structures and features. OpenDune / Dune Dynasty is the best example I know (C code). Red alert has also been recompiled to ASM by some people, not yet to C.

 

Here is a time estimation of reverse engineering a simpler Flight Simulation: 15 years.

http://fabiensanglard.net/reverse_engineering_strike_commander/

 

 

 

"they (Third Wire) were happy not to be working on PC these days"

Piracy has been an issue ever since the PC was introduced, back then. Has it become worse?

Apple has its own Piracy, the terrible 30% of all payments in the app store that goes in the pockets of Apple.

 

And most importantly, these TW mobile games are just too simple. It is like playing Chuck Yeager's air combat (1991) with a timer and bad controls. Better graphics though.

 

Would also be curious how a SF2 game would do in the GoG Catalog. Though I often think the average customer tends to stick to games he already knows, or something close to it.

Edited April 9, 2015 by gerwin

[Stratos 3,188]

gerwin thanks for the link and the explanation, question is, even with the source code, do we have anyone capable and with the interest to add some feautres to the sim? If yes we can try ask for the source code with a non disclosure agreement.

[+mue 715]

gerwin thanks for the link and the explanation, question is, even with the source code, do we have anyone capable and with the interest to add some feautres to the sim? If yes we can try ask for the source code with a non disclosure agreement.

If we could get the source code, I would help with programming.

[Stratos 3,188]

If we could get the source code, I would help with programming.

 

Now that's a big step forward.

 

Guys, is there any way to record our signatures and send a proper mail to TK?