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swambast

Why didn't the World War 2 era take off for SF2?

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All, just curious to get some perspectives.  I understand that IL-2 is still considered a World War 2 masterpiece and "go to" sim.  And I know there is a separate but rather calm forum here.  But I'm just sincerely wondering what specific reasons and limitations exist as to why that genre never really took off under the SF2 game engine?      

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Capun locking out and banning 98.6% of the WW2 modders (well, actually just about anyone that had 'words to say").

(considering that I carried, ALONE, WW2 modding on this site for MANY years ... I just got tired of not having many of the aircraft required for the various theaters. One of the reasons I never finished the CBI map, that covers almost 20% of the planet, is most of the IJAAF aircraft are either so old they're shit, or many are not longer available to the 'general pubiic'

It can still be done, it there were enough people (modelers, FM gurus, etc). Some of the terrains DO need reworking or complete replacements; it's just a matter of interest.

 

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Which is a shame, because the WW2 terrains and objects here are outstanding.  Wrench, your Pacific and Europe terrains and WhiteBoySamurai's WW2 Long Hull Essex make playing WW2 on SF2 great fun for me, and I still do every chance I get. 

I only wish I had the modding skills to pitch in and help. 

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Please, enlighten us to that "original" statement, if you would

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Sorry for the confusion.  I really meant what Wrench is referring to...actual modding of World War 2 era.  Are there other limitations of the game engine though?  For example, can a B-17 fire from all turret positions?  How are the prop plane flight models?  Any other "showstopper" issues that made it particularly challenging to mod for this era?   Or was it more a lack of content and interest? 

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don't fly bombers in single missions. you only get 2 planes, and giving orders to the wingman causes the game to crash.

but ALL turrets will work on bombers

FM usually on WHO built them -- I've seen many that don't come close to anectdotal and actual references. so, yes, some consistency issues.

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a clarification on turrets: they all shoot at the bad guys. but you cant switch positions like some games and man a gun.

at least thats how i read the question, sorry if im being knuckleheaded again.

and consistency issues on the prop FMs? thats a polite way to put it (esp looking at the site that bans)

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The prop engine flight model didn't exist in SFP1. First Eagles provided the WWI engines, but TK only made that sim because a certain person bankrolled it. Wings Over Israel was released with the first true support for WW2 aircraft flight models. I never delved into the WW2 aspect of the SF flight model, so I have no clue about what bugs were in it that might hinder attempts to develop decent flight models, but since they were rare birds in a sim focused on jets, I am sure TK didn't spend a lot of time on it, so it might not have everything you might want in terms of engine modeling and it might have bugs in the things it does provide.

Having actually written an application to analyze and help edit SFP1/WoX flight models, I can say it takes a tremendous amount of research, time, and effort to get even one flight model as correct as the game engine permits. In many ways, the jets are much easier to model since more modern flight manuals contain countless tables of performance data that help figure out the actual lift, drag, and thrust curves. But even then, much of the information needed for stability and inertia parameters has to be done by trial and error and calibrated to personal preference.

So, why would anyone try to develop the countless flight models needed for so many different aircraft to a decent level of detail when WW2 air combat sims are a dime a dozen and several already existed with diverse plane sets and/or great flight modeling? I only managed to create one decent flight model, the F-4B for SFP1 SP2a. As soon as TK release the next patch level, Wings Over Vietnam, my F-4B flight model was broken. While later patches allowed it to work ok again, it never was quite the same, especially because TK changed how the flight model engine handled stalling/departure, a critical aspect of hard winged Phantoms. I also developed a major bug in my flight model editor after adding new features to accommodate TK's patches. I didn't have the old source files nor the time/energy to track down what got broken, so I gave up developing flight models all together.

There were/are several SFP1/SF2 veterans that produce new flight models and/or tweak old ones. But they mostly have moved on from this game or only pursue their own pet projects.

It is possible to create a sort of template for a particular aircraft configuration and then massage it to fit particular aircraft. If you can find an existing aircraft in the stock game or available for download with a decent FM and similar to the aircraft you want to model, it is the best, least time consuming way to go. But you still have to perform flight test after flight test to tune the FM to any decent level of precision compared to published data for the real aircraft. To do a good job, you have to understand what the FM tables actually are and the consequences of tampering with them. Fixing one issue almost always causes another, unless you fully understand the interaction of all the aerodynamic coefficients, and even then it is still a lot of trial and error.

Edited by streakeagle
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I'm gonna jump on the Craphead....err....Crapun.....errr so sorry Capun bashing bandwagon, because I cannot pass up the opportunity to diss the tosser ,  to say I dislike him slightly is maybe taking British understatement  to the very limits of credibility. But enough about that oxygen thief....err I mean modder ( cough , cough) and to just say that the SF series isn't really meant to be a follow on to the excellent EAW, and other sims from the period, rather it was really to take the Century series, and beyond and run down that route, with the occasional Prop aircraft represented, ie the Skyraider, and some others, but the main emphasis on the jet age. I would like to see more of the prop era ie from WWI through to the mid to late 40's developed on the FE platform, there are of course some issues, although you can get some stuff to work in FE, not all of it will ( I may be misinformed here, so correct me if I am wrong ) Stephen 1918 is actually working on some Spanish Civil War stuff, which is nice to see, but there are far fewer modders on FE than there are on SF , also the FE engine is a bit crap compared to SF ( you cannot use JPG skins for example) but the options ARE there for modders to maybe shoehorn WWII stuff onto that engine....Just a thought, maybe I am misguided somewhat , however maybe its an option ? :pilotfly:

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9 hours ago, streakeagle said:

..., especially because TK changed how the flight model engine handled stalling/departure,...

The stall modeling in SF2 (e.g. the Stall*TableData) is still a big unknown to me. The regime between -AlphaDepart and AlphaDepart I mostly understand. Currently I'm implementing  the SF2 P-51D FM in JSBSim/FlightGear. In the normal non-stall/non-departure regime it already "feels" quite similar to SF2. But I still have to run some validation tests.

 

9 hours ago, streakeagle said:

There were/are several SFP1/SF2 veterans that produce new flight models and/or tweak old ones. But they mostly have moved on from this game or only pursue their own pet projects.

Yes, while sifting through the TW forum archives I noticed that back then there were several FM guys active. And according to the questions they have asked, it seems they know that they are doing.
I think one guy was from avhistory.org and wanted to port CFS? flight models to SF.

Edited by mue
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the time is the big killer

and that takes it back to interest. with the ability to use blender to make models now, someone hopefully will

- have the interest in the subject

- put in the effort to learn blender effectively

- have the spare time for the two above

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The main reason I never get into WW2 modeling is - time. 

I've built 80% of Luftwaffe 1937-45 force in 1/72 scale - and it took me around 20years... so I guess 3d would take also a vast amount of time. 

Just now, daddyairplanes said:

- have the interest in the subject

Interest in the subject is a reason why am not modding WW2 - I would not get out of home ever anymore.....

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17 hours ago, swambast said:

All, just curious to get some perspectives.  I understand that IL-2 is still considered a World War 2 masterpiece and "go to" sim.  And I know there is a separate but rather calm forum here.  But I'm just sincerely wondering what specific reasons and limitations exist as to why that genre never really took off under the SF2 game engine?      

To be honest you have hit the nail on the head there with IL-2. Whenever I want to fly WW2 aircraft I always go to IL-2, because it has got everything I want from a WW2 Combat Flight sim.  I don't need to look elsewhere. And I would bet that other  people feel the same way.

One of the main reasons I am here at Combat Ace is that I love flying jets as well and because I am not Modded with IL-2  I have not got access to loads of different post-war and modern jets.    :airplane: 

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I always felt that IL-2 did a much better job at flight models and capturing the feel of flying WWII era prop aircraft.  So the WWII mods for SF1/SF2 that did exist were never really any interest to me.

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15 hours ago, streakeagle said:

It is possible to create a sort of template for a particular aircraft configuration and then massage it to fit particular aircraft. If you can find an existing aircraft in the stock game or available for download with a decent FM and similar to the aircraft you want to model, it is the best, least time consuming way to go. But you still have to perform flight test after flight test to tune the FM to any decent level of precision compared to published data for the real aircraft. To do a good job, you have to understand what the FM tables actually are and the consequences of tampering with them. Fixing one issue almost always causes another, unless you fully understand the interaction of all the aerodynamic coefficients, and even then it is still a lot of trial and error.

That's an interesting idea and one I have thought about. Even my simplified approach to WW2 FM's consumes a surprising amount of time and at this point I find WW2 to big to bother with considering the amount of different aircraft involved and the lack of availability for some models.

Getting back to Streakeagle's comments, many of the WW2 fighters used similar airfoils so it is quite possible to put together a "generic" FM that could be fine tuned to get "decent" results for specific aircraft. Unfortunately, the Spitfire and Mustang, both modeled by Thirdwire, have unique airfoils so aren't particularly good choices to use as a base for a generic WW2 FM. The S-99 is a bit better but even that one has some uniqueness with the slat installation.

A confession, I did use some aspects of the TW S-99 FM as a bit of an experiment when putting together a FW-190 FM and got it to perform more or less as I wanted it to but it did require much tinkering. But that's the other issue as noted by Streakeagle. It's hard to get accurate turn performance data for the old WW2 fighters so I based desired turn performance on anecdotal information and sometimes on Soviet turn time tests. The results are still impressionistic. The Spitfire turns better than the BF-109 which turns better than the FW-190 which turns about the same as the Hawker Tempest and Typhoon and they all turn better than a P-47. :dntknw:

I still like the idea of a European Air War type sim based on the TW game because of the trim free zone and for myself I wouldn't even bother with any torque/P-factor and whatever else is available because it probably wouldn't be accurate anyway. Unfortunately, the work required is immense and there are other sims available for that era that would probably be a better choice for anyone interested.

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As I said Baffmeister, SF was not designed to be a prop sim, hence my comments about using FE as a basis, as that is.

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well... i love the way sf and fe deals with the campaigns, have not really seen any other game or sim out there that has the same effects from the player on the campaign, so for me it would have been awesome if TK had done korea and ww2 in the same style.

the modders here deserve a huge thank you for the awesome mods that are already out there (you guys/gals are awesome!)

i have still to figure out how to properly mod my new sf2 install and i am a bit of a dumdum when it comes those issues (will make another threat so not to take up this one with irrelevant stuff)

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42 minutes ago, General PB said:

well... i love the way sf and fe deals with the campaigns, have not really seen any other game or sim out there that has the same effects from the player on the campaign, so for me it would have been awesome if TK had done korea and ww2 in the same style.

the modders here deserve a huge thank you for the awesome mods that are already out there (you guys/gals are awesome!)

i have still to figure out how to properly mod my new sf2 install and i am a bit of a dumdum when it comes those issues (will make another threat so not to take up this one with irrelevant stuff)

I think most of us "old hands" of SF/FE would agree with those sentiments, I have had the whole shooting match of this sime both as the orginal SF Project one, and FE 1 all the way through to now, and I have every expansion and addon going for this sim. OK its maybe not the most "accurate" flight sim on the market, but it has to be one of the most fun, and most user friendly ones , if you wan spot on accurate and "realistic" sims such as the IL series, and the DCS world series, those sims are both accurate and beautiful, however I always come back to these because they are just FUN !! and they do the job admirably , I tend to agree with your sentiments about the Korea scenario, however there is one on this site, with most of the important and relevant aircraft involved in Korea, on this site, for this sim........WWII well tk I suppose had to compete with the IL series, and he was never going to really make a profit from it I guess, I'm not a TK fan boy at all, I think he took his money and fucked us off, but thats just my opinion, and not everyone will agree I expect.

Anyway, enjoy and get into some modding, and help us keep this sim current and fighting on !! :drinks:

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The SF2 Korea produced by the modders combined with the Skyraiders and F2H-2 from Razbam makes for an awesome ride. I wouldn't hesitate to say that it came out better than what TK could have produced, which would have had a very small flyable plane set and still not as many aircraft and objects as modders have produced. But the problem of the FMs is always there. Ignore the FMs discrepancies and the quality of some of the older models and Korea looks great and plays great... Not available in any sim since MiG Alley and a marked improvement over MiG Alley. What other sim has a proper Korean War environment where you can fly missions with almost any aircraft historically available on either side? The F7F Tigercat and F3D Skyknight are rarely if ever in combat flight sim. Some of the Russian prop planes would have been late war monsters if WW2 had not ended, but in Korea they still faced P-51Ds but got a good taste of jets, too.

Edited by streakeagle
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I've got a dedicated install for the SF2 Korean War mod, and love it. The aircraft set is a bit limited, about 40, but a lot of fun in the jets.

I also have dedicated installs for WW2 ETO 1939-45 (170 different ETO aircraft), PTO 1941-45 (130 aircraft), WW2 Russian Front 1941-45 (95 aircraft), WW2 Finland 1939-44 (50 aircraft) and WW2 North Africa 1940-43 (120 aircraft), so I can't agree that SF2 WW2 never took off.  There are a lot of WW2 aircraft (and ground objects) around.

I don't fly DCS or Il-2, I found them too fiddly and difficult, but SF2 works a treat for me, for WW2 combat flying.

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I dod mod FE as I loved some terrains and the haze and fog effects looked the dogs.added ww2 and removed all the ww1 stuff...worked fine to a degree......pity we cant utilise it with SF2...wonder if TK would let us mix em up...

Edited by russouk2004

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9 hours ago, russouk2004 said:

I dod mod FE as I loved some terrains and the haze and fog effects looked the dogs.added ww2 and removed all the ww1 stuff...worked fine to a degree......pity we cant utilise it with SF2...wonder if TK would let us mix em up...

That has been my thought since forever !! if FE could utilise the same engine for graphics etc as SF has then it would be even more outstanding as a sim, and open up the possibility of doing the prob based stuff over there , I dont have the tech know how to do that though, it needs some of you Voodoo users who do all the techie stuff, and can add 2 and 2 together and not get 3 hehehehe. 

As for TK....who knows what goes on in his head, but I get a feeling he would be awkward about it.

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