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Dave

Anyone Else Furloughed Today?

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I know 531_Ghost and I are. Anyone get their walking papers today because of the government shut down? Thank you so much Democrats and Republicans. 

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i'm just glad they pulled heads out juuust enough that the still serving green suiters get paid on the 15th.  still not good for ya esp with all else going on. take this time and take care of your fam issues i would say....

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Today is my normal day off for this week, jump's around every week. My job treats me like a mushroom .

Edited by RAVEN

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I'm still surfing trying to figure out what this means, what are the possible consequences short and long term and what is it based on...well at least I'll polish up my legal english terms and skills :D

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I still didn't manage to figure out how long can this last theoretically. For example in Croatia if the budget is not passed by the Parliament in 120 days, all hell will get loose, Parliament will be dismissed and new elections will follow on.

Is there such possibility by the US constitution or this can in theory last forever?

 

EDIT: Nvm, I found my answer after some digging, well it seems no outside power can stop them or force them to do anything about it...a bit, I don't know lacking may be the best word, there should be some mechanism that would force them to stop keeping the entire country in the grid lock, just my 2c...

Edited by Brain32

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I still didn't manage to figure out how long can this last theoretically.

Me neither.

 

One more thing that  I don't understand is what is the point of debt ceiling at all, when it will be raised when the debt  reaches the ceiling again. It's a scam anyway, they should just abolish the debt ceiling all together cause everybody knows that they will borrow ad infinitum.

By the way, Obama has doubled the US national debt since he came to office!!! Meaning in fact , that he indebted the US  as all other presidents before him combined.  Gotta hand it to him and his handlers from Wall Street. What a legacy! Possibly the worst president of USA in financial term ever.

Edited by hrc

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In Spain we keep the last year, non-updated budget. Fortunately, it has never happened yet. We may get pays unadjusted for inflation, or loose the extra pays for Christmas or summer, however. A salary decrease may be compensated with days of leave.

Edited by macelena

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The Jug has been side-lined too.  I am glad the first responders have been eliminated from this shut-down, but have another far-out opinion of the no-expense days.  We may discover that if this thing lasts a week, we may have a balanced budget for 2013............

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About half the base went home at 1100 today, it looked like. Nothing in SFS, yet but we have AGRs and not Techs along with we civilians.

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Yet Congress and the political apointees still get their benifits and a pay check regardless of what happens...

 

You demand your employes must do X, but give them funding for Y.

 

Then you bash your employees every chance you get.

 

When Z happens, you further bash your employess for neglecting to forsee Z but also fault them for doing mission X instead of Y.

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Yeah, we got hit with it - obviously I'm not affected being active, but I've picked up some furloughed civilian duties atop my current ones!

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We had a lot of shutdowns today too. Our AGRs were still in, but all of the mday guys (part timers) were blocked. Their drill was postponed until further notice. Honestly, the only guys that really were authorized to come in and get paid are a couple of our companies who are in their pre-mobilization phase for upcoming deployments. But there were a LOT of guys who did not make it in today. 

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It is funny how people seem to forget that the 08 recession was a direct result of Bush economic policy. Obama did not single handedly double the debt. The debt was almost doubled due to two unfunded wars and the unfunded Medicare Part D expansion and the subsequent emergency measures taken by Bush who signed the first stimulus bailout and the tough call made by the Obama administration to continue the stimulus plan that finally did pull the economy out of the flat spin. Most people do not understand that the largest economy in the world cannot be ran like a small family budget. Most conservatives in congress are completely ignorant as to really how powerful important and also how fragile our economy really is. A macro economy uses debt as a manner to circulate trade. These small minded Republican reps. are to blame. I have pity on those that think this childish display by congress is a good thing for the nation. Face it Republitards you lost, this childish tantrum just makes you look just as stupid as the fat guy at the tea party rally dressed like George Washington. Stupidity breeds stupidity.

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 the fat guy at the tea party rally dressed like George Washington

 

While as a foreigner i´m neutral to your politics, Stolen Valor comes to mind.

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I like the first one from 9gag... Actually it is not as stupid as it looks, new elections might solve something. For the rest the whole thing stinks, politicians at their worst........ :angry:

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Problem of US is the following; in this year gvmnt. projected expenditure in 3.8$ trillion, while total gvmnt. revenue (through taxation etc.) is 2.9$ trillion. That leaves 900$ billion to be borrowed , mostly through gvmnt's IOU (gvmnt. issued long and short term bonds) that are bought by central banks of dollar surplus countries (such as Germany, China, Japan, S. Korea...) in order to safely invest/store their countries export earned dollars. The interest that US gvmnt. must pay annually on it's debt (to holders of US treasury bond) rates between 300 and 500$ billion a year depending on interest rates.

 

US could lower it's 900$B deficit by cutting down gvmnt. spending and raising taxes. It is the solution that is argued by IMF and similar predatory lending institutions on indebted european, lat. american and african countries (From Argentina to Greece). These drakonian solutions (and in US they would be drakonian 'cause of the size of the debt) destroy middle classes, cause riots, colossal unemployment,  national economic and moral depression, lower marriage and birth rates, suicides etc. because gvmnt. that performs austerity alway does it to the poor and middle class, never to the countries real money holders (private bankers, financial speculators, monopolists etc.)

 

Second solution for US is to refuse to pay anymore, i.e.  declaring that it cancels all foreign debts (or majority of it). It has been done by Mexico, Argentina, Bulgaria, all together some 30 countries in the world have declared cancellation or debt moratorium at some point. They were faced with harsh political and trading measures by unfortunately US gvmnt. among others. Not to mention subversion and attempts of governmental change. Luckily, nobody could do that to US.

But this solution would undoubtedly bring about an end of the dollar as a world reserve currency, because rich exporting countries wouldn't hold their earnings in dollars anymore, but in something else (euro, yen, gold and then the possibility of borowing for US ends), or as some sound economists and  yours truly advocate, would invest those earnings into their own countries, which would see the rise of prosperous middle classes in China, and rest of Asia, where for now their central banks are buying US IOU's instead,  financing US deficit so that US can buy their products again. Sweatshop workers in Asia have no real benefit from such policies of their central banks. They should be enjoying products they made.

 

What is also a version of second solution, is that US inflates it's way out of the debt, i.e. that it always prints the amounts that are due to be payed. US is not doing that so far, but it is the most likely scenario considering US political elite. It is politicaly more popular than to impose austerity on your constituencies  This would of course cause huge inflation, and possibly hyperinflation, which would not only harm the US lenders and any dollar holder ('cause the value of their wealth denominated in dollars would go out the window), but it would also hurt the rest of the world (and especially poor countries), high $ inflation or hyperinflation would cause the prices of oil to skyrocket and cause economic and transportation collapse in many countries, even deaths. All that because energy (oil and gas), that is bought on world markets is charged in US dollar.

 

Of course what ever path the US gvmnt. choose, US population will suffer. I don't see them proposing anything different than this solutions. Mainstream left wants to expand social entitlements and continue borrowing, choosing scenario 2, Right wingers, conservatives, libertarians want to go on the path that causes scenario 1. (Ron/Rand Paul would cut food stamps by 2/3, and abolish supplementary diet for pregnant mothers, which I can only describe as loonacy)

 

As one US observer sumed it :  cut deficit and we'll be Greece

                                                  continue with it and well be Zimbabve

 

 

 

Now, there is a solution to this economic depression  and debt crisis. I advocate it for my country as well:

 

Make your central bank finance the economic recovery. FED must be nationalised and become a part of US treasury department.

Then, FED should issue a new, open ended credit line for anybody in US who produces commodities, or wants to do so. That includes manufacturing of any kind of hard commodities, infrastructure modernization, mining, farming, scientific research, building of new modern nuclear reactors to replace old ones and to give higher power capability for population and future economic growth.

 

This new credit should be given only to those who want to produce, nothing to banks to relend it to the economy, this would be direct gvmnt,. lending  to industrial sector and private entrepreneurships (includin all kinds of bussines, big or small that provide even basic societies  needs).  Federal states, cities and municipalities would issue their bond that would be bought by FED and private investors (but US citizens only), and would mature in 25, 50 or 100 years, depending on the type of investment it's for (for a new railway or waterway it must obviously be longer). Money would be used to rebuild highway system and roads, and to buil modern maglev rail throughout the country proping up industrialization, research, and building industrial and engineering base for the future.

 

The interest on FED's credit would be in range of 0 to 0.5 percent. If FED can buy m.b. securities, structured investment vehicles, and other toxic and derivative monstrosities in range of 85$ billion a month to prop up private banks with whom it has in cahoots caused the greatest economic crisis in recent history, then it must be redirected to finance industrial production, and infrastructure modernization which in turn creates millions of jobs.

 

There must also be big changes in laws regarding banking and economy. Derivatives (this cancer that is the trademark of depression) must be outlawed and deleted. Giant zombie banks in US (zombie because they are dead broke but keep walking with taxpayers money) must be liquidated and their derivatives and debt sheets deleted. Fat cats in JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citigroup should eat their own losses. No taxpayers or FED money for them.

Glass Steagl law should also be reinstituted to prevent economic bubbles through speculation of the few banking oligopoles.

 

If somebody is concerned with inflation this type of economic recovery would cause, answer is that once you get economic progress the discrepancy between volume of economy and volume of money would be lowered so inflation would be pulled back. By the way inflation wouldn't be any higher than now, 'cause FED is printing more dollars out of thin air constantly, it is just beeing chanellised into wrong activities. Like in Croatia, we have high inflation already. Not because we print Kuna but because Kuna is in fixed position to Euro that causes inflation throgh printing. So we should better strat printing our own money and put it into economic recovery and production.

 

In this case money shouldn't be seen as something given and fixed, but rather as a tool to get things started.

 

My ideas aren't anything new.  They are in good part a US New Deal of Franklin D. Roosevelt that ended the depression of 20's and 30's and made US the biggest industrial power in the world that eventually crushed the greatest evils of 20 century; Nazi Germany and Japan, then started conquering space and bringing great technologies to the world.

Edited by hrc

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The problem is the Constitution isn't perfect. It never was, it never will be, which is why it was made to be flexible so it could be amended and made better. Yet on one side you have those who (supposedly) believe it's infallible like the Pope (aside from those areas it's not convenient to acknowledge of course) and on the other you have those who think it's really no longer relevant. Likewise all the amendments in the Bill of Rights have equal weight, yet apparently for one group only the 2nd is inviolable while for the other group it's the one to ignore.

 

It needs to be updated, and then it needs to be followed. The world of the late 18th century is not the world of the early 21st. To suggest that because a bunch of old white guys who were fed up with being told what to do by people overseas they for some reason had outstanding intelligence and foresight that surpasses what we have today is ridiculous.

 

I propose a new amendment allowing a public vote to dissolve Congress if the people feel it's not doing its job...like now. A simple vote of no confidence putting all 535 jobs up for grabs with NONE allowed to run again. If the people say "Congress is doing a bad job", they ALL must go and you get a new batch. They are barred for life from running again.

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I blame both parties. 

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We live in a society were wants and "self esteem" come first and foremost. Our unwarranted self-importance, delusions of grandeur, and me first attitude is aptly reflected in the politicians we elected to office.

 

Everyone wants something for nothing...better yet they feel entitled to everything for nothing. And just like a bratty child or trophy wife, it is the "other guy's" fault they did not get it.

 

Cutbacks are a bitter pill that everyone has to swallow, from grandma's Social Security checks to our favorite tanks and airplanes.

 

There is a responsible way to do it and then there is mess way to do it. The messy way, ie sequestration and the shutdown, will just end up costing everyone (except the politicians who get paid, along with book and speech deals regardless) more money and problems in the long term. Yet, instead of being sensible across the board, these politicians and their lobbies want to isolate and cherry pick their own favorite government programs and say "Its not insert here that is costing money!" “Grandma needs her Medicare! But we don’t need another aircraft carrier!” Or “We need another tank, but tell that 80 year old to get of his a$$ and get a job!”

 

The kicker that really irks me is, is this whole politically expedient notion that all the politicians (and their cable news brainwashed constituents) follow; which is waving the flag and shouting "support the troops!" yet want to cut everything that our fighting men and women need to effectively do their jobs. You can't neatly separate the military from the supporting civilian infrastructure (to include logistics, accounting/pay, law enforcement/security, intel, medical care, etc.). Nor can you have a large civilian workforce, with no army or police to protect them. You can get rid of some of the redundancy and bloat best you can, but you necessarily can’t completely have one without the other.

 

Since there are those, and many in Congress, that essentially want to abolish and overthrow the government, then fine...please do not complain when a bomb goes off in a city or when a few more illegals and drugs than normal jump the boarder.

 

Also, those who want more government, again fine it is all fine and dandy... Please don't complain when your tax rate is 20%.


I blame both parties. 

 

Yeah, both parties kicked this can down the road and went into "not my fault, blame him!"

 

We have not had a budget passed in so long I can't remember when there actually was one.

 

The public also needs to understand that there is more to voting than the presidential and gubernatorial elections. The also need to understand that you can't have it all;  despite what politicians and the media tells them.

 

It is feasible to have either more government or even no government. But you can't have both at the same time and/or only for the programs/agencies that you personally like.

 

Life sure doesn't work that way; and, I don't understand why people expect different..

 

Rant off...

 

Sorry Dave but still a little POed about this nonsense....

Edited by ironroad
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What you in US need  is more production. Your gvmnts allowed production to be shifted overseas through NAFTA, GATT, and WTO loosing millions of jobs and essential industrial base. You need to go back to economic policies that served you well up until 60's and especially in the 19 ct. when there was a economic boom in US lasting for decades, where every immigrant from all over the world flocked to US.

 

US is the home of the worlds greatest but forgotten tradition of economics, the American system o economics. Opposite to monetarist mythology, the Ameican system never had anything to do with free trade or free markets, even less with Rockefeller funded, erroneous  Chicago school of economics which is basically the failed Austrian school of economics of von Hayek. The tradition of American system is one of protectionism, mercantilism and dirigism.

Your contemporary monetarists and financiers pretend that that history doesn't exist.

Edited by hrc

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It's nonsense and then ones who say oh it's Bush's fault need to get off that line as its old and not relevant to this current issue. The Democrats refuse to take responsibility for anything and the Tea Party Republicans refuse to even use common sense in negotiations over Obamacare. Morons, all of then. 

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Disagreed. The whole issue boils down to racism. The single most important long term debt reducing measure is the reduction of debt incurred by uninsured Americans that the federal government ultimately pays the service providers. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act was modeled after a Heritage Foundation model produced by that conservative think tank over 20 years ago. There is nothing at all "socialist" about insurance companies being guaranteed new customers by law. The only reason the Tea Party assholes want to prevent this ( which they actually can't that is the irony) is the fact that when it works and becomes as popular as social security it will be a victory for the first African American President. Point blank bold faced bigotry. I remember when Congress members where walking up the steps of the Capital to make their historic vote on it. Rep John Lewis from Georgia who was damn near beaten to death by racist cops on the Pettus Bridge in Selma Alabama. Was spit on and called a n****r on national TV by Tea Party activists as he walked up the Capital steps to vote for the ACA. They are pathetic.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/20/tea-party-protests-nier-f_n_507116.html

 

http://thejoshuablogs.blogspot.com/2010/03/teabaggers-chant-nigger-at-john-lewis.html

 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/20/90772/rep-john-lewis-charges-protesters.html

Edited by CrazyhorseB34

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