Russian Fighter Jet Buzzed U.S. Ship: Officials

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Palpatine:

Japan made the mistake of confusing a desire not to fight for weakness and an unwillingness to fight. And they paid for it.

 

 

 

Take a look at a narrative of what's been going on. First replace the word "Putin" with the word "Hitler". Then replace "Russia" with Germany". Then replace "Crimea" and "Eastern Ukraine" with ""Austria", "Sudetenland", "Czechoslovakia", and "Rhineland" and what do you have?

 

 

A history lesson!

I concurr with the history lesson, such attitudes havn't been seen since 1930's. Putin isn't Hitler of course, but his foreign policies are as agressive as the former's ones.

 

Regarding weakness: the U.S. might not be weak. Well, it depends, they are not now what they used to be. Thanks, to some extent, to B.H. Obama. 

But us Europeans... Gods, I am so ashamed. We might not be world powers, but even secondary powers can have credible forces. Forces strong enough to be a deterrent. 

Twenty years of budget cuts have left our forces in a decrepit state. 

The British army wouldn't even fill a full stadium. Same for France. We wouldn't even be able to mount a "falkland-like" operation if some country invaded our oversea territories. Heck, we are struggling (and exhausting ourselves) in ill thought and planed operations in Africa. Who cares about Centrafrique? Who cares about Africa?

They are failed states since 1960. And now, we aren't even able to stabilize the CAR. Back in the 1970's, we could mount a drop of paratroopers in Zaire in a few hours and kick the bad guys asses in a few hours. 

 

We are basically with our pants on our ankles, weaponless and unwilling to fight, even for other europeans. I am both ashamed and afraid for the future. 

BTW, my english written skills are slowly dying because of my lack of practice. I do apologize for all the mistakes and bad grammar.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Emp_Palpatine

[+Gunrunner 314]

I think the problem with Europe is that we worked hard to make it a gigantic consumer and financial market, but have done nothing to make it a political and defense entity, we all had budget cuts to our defense, but had we worked a european defense scheme we wouldn't all have to pay redundant things and end up with a stronger, credible, more efficient military, of course that means a stronger political union to wield that power, but no, we just abandoned the European dream because local politicians never wanted to compromise "sovereignty" (translation : I want to keep as much as my power as I can, regardless of what is best for my country and its citizens).

[+Menrva 4,200]

I agree with you, Emp_Palpatine. However let's say that if the Russians are planning a war in the shadows, it is going to be their mistake, and it will be written on all history books. While the U.S. and Europe are unwilling to fight and send armies, both countries are showing their strength in resisting to such posturing (and keep in mind that CAP flights and AWACS are in the air as we speak, trying to foresee the next move, much like a chess match).

 

I've read the latest info on BBC News, and it appears that pro-Russia protesters are distributing anti-semitic leaflets in Donetsk. Should this be true, it would be very funny, since they define the Western world as fascist, while they would need some serious history lessons back to primary school.

 

P.S. BTW Palpatine, your English is not bad at all, I'm worried about mine.

 

I think the problem with Europe is that we worked hard to make it a gigantic consumer and financial market, but have done nothing to make it a political and defense entity, we all had budget cuts to our defense, but had we worked a european defense scheme we wouldn't all have to pay redundant things and end up with a stronger, credible, more efficient military, of course that means a stronger political union to wield that power, but no, we just abandoned the European dream because local politicians never wanted to compromise "sovereignty" (translation : I want to keep as much as my power as I can, regardless of what is best for my country and its citizens).

 

 

Exactly, this applies to my f*cking country (Italy) and I guess to most of Southern-Eastern Europe. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've got the perception that North European countries, for instance, have serious politicians and do believe in a flag or an ideology, should it be good or bad. Politicians here in Italy just think about money, power, and... something else which I'd be ashamed to tell.

Edited April 19, 2014 by blaze95

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Well, I am not that surprised about the whole anti-semitic thing.
 

Just have a look on some pro-russian stalwarts here at CombatAce. Said guy talked about some jewish plot in Ukraine, or whatever. 

 

Come solitamente con li "anti-imperialisti".

[von Baur 54]

On the anti-semitic angle|

The pro-Russian factions say it wasn't them, it was someone trying to frame them. This may be the case or it could be damage control ("oops, we f**ked up") or it could be a red herring, a la the Chancellory fire in Berlin that Hitler used to stir things up. And Hitler's first (chronologically, not order of importance) real target was homosexuals. So there's a very similr timeline going on here.

 

IMO, Western Europe's military weakness (if it truly exists) stems from allowing the US to provide the real threat against the USSR during the Cold War. The NATO allies couldn't hope to match Russia's spending, the US could, so Europe put up nominal support while focussing on their economies, both individual and group. The result is that the US economy has been weakened by defense spending while Western Europe hasn't had to shovel as much money into that pit since Big Brother will come to their rescue if necessary. The fall of the wall feuled a feeling that there's no need to spend as much on defense or worry about a major war. Unfortunately, it seems there's at least one dinosaur still wandering around out there who could see this as an opportunity.

 

I worry about this. I don't think it would develop into a World War because I don't think the Asian countries will get involved (unless China jumps in at the last minute to snatch up portions of Siberia the way Russia finally declared war on Japan a few weeks before they surrendered in 1945...after whining about the West not invading Fortress Europe as soon as Hitler launched Barbarosa, btw). But it could get nasty, all the same. Russia still has nukes, and Putin strikes me as the kind who would, seeing his cause lost, deploy them in an "If I can't have it nobody can" attitude.

 

 

**editted for spelling. I really have to stop posting at 5:ooAM**

Edited April 19, 2014 by von Baur

[+Gepard 11,295]

a la the Chancellory fire in Berlin that Hitler used to stir things up. And Hitler's first (chronologically, not order of importance) real target was homosexuals.

 

I think you knowledge about german history is weak. First: Its was not the Reichskanzlei (what you call Chancellory) that burned but the Reichstag (House of Parliament). Second: Hitlers first target was the annihilation of communist, socialdemocratic (in Britain called Labour, in US called Liberals) and left unionist resistance. The hunt for jewish and homos came later.

There were a lot of inncidents when rich jewish germans in 1933 explained, that they were satisfied, that the "Lefties" disappeard from german society. The bad wake up came some years later.

There was also a poem about it. Translated into englis it is:

 

When they came to arrest the commies,

i said nothing, because i was no commie.

 

When they came to arrest the sozis,

i said nothing, because i was no sozi.

 

When they came to arrest the unionists,

i said nothing, because i was not in the union.

 

When they later came to arrest me,

there was nobody left who could say anything.

 

 

 

The comparision of Putin with Hitler is completly wrong. Putin is no gambler, he know exactly how far he can go.

If you want to compare Putin with a german politician, then you should take Bismarck.

[von Baur 54]

My apologies, Gepard. Of course it was the Reichstag. Not so  much a lack of understanding German history as the mistake of a fuzzy mind (see note at the bottom of the post about when it was made).

 

I consider Hitler's attack on leftists purely political, done to curry electoral favor. Going after homosexuals, Jews, Gypsies etc was part of his "purification" of the human race of "undesirables". IMO, not the same.

[+Gepard 11,295]

I found an interessting article of the russian point of view of the Su-24 vs USS Donald Cook incident.

Unfortunatly i have found it only on german language.

 

http://de.ria.ru/opinion/20140421/268324381.html

 

 

The main message was, that the Su-24 was equipped with the newest jamming device called Khibiny. This jammer was able to suppres the Aegis target aquisition and fire guidance system. So the Su-24 was able to launch 12 mock attacks on the ship.

After the incident, so was said, the USS Donald Cook changed the course and headed immedietly toward a romanian port. Further was said, that 27 members of the crew wrote a letter of resignment (hope this is the correct term), while the most of the crew showed signs of demoralization.

 

 

This is the russian point of view, not mine.

[+Dave 2,322]

Complete and utter bullshit.

[Derk 265]

Nice Russian vieuw......

Reminds me strongly of what my youngest daughter did while acting in a very nice  performance of "Animal Farm" by Orwell this week. In the play they brilliantly used the same sort of old fashioned commie propaganda shit for the dumb people like in "Khibiny" nonsense. Same sort of crap was used by Göbbels in WW II.......    Not that the Western gouvernements are that much better, but at least there is room for different opinions and reports......

[von Baur 54]

Jimmy Carter cancelled the B-1 when TASS reported that the then-USSR already had fighters capable of bringing them down quite easily. Turned out later to be a complete bluff.

 

I'll wait for other confirmation of this "news" report, thank you.

[JediMaster 451]

Yes, because if the jammer had NOT suppressed the radar the ship would've promptly shot down the Su-24, the bodies would've been strung from the yardarms, and the crew would've thrown fish at them while posting the videos to YouTube to the tune of "Let it Go". Because that's what Americans always do. There is no such thing as self-restraint and NOT firing on a neutral plane that is NOT attacking. Of course.

[+Erik 1,812]

Literally spit my coffee everywhere. God I love this place, never short on a good time. The force is strong with that one.

[+pcpilot 181]

 

The main message was, that the Su-24 was equipped with the newest jamming device called Khibiny. This jammer was able to suppres the Aegis target aquisition and fire guidance system. So the Su-24 was able to launch 12 mock attacks on the ship.

After the incident, so was said, the USS Donald Cook changed the course and headed immedietly toward a romanian port. Further was said, that 27 members of the crew wrote a letter of resignment (hope this is the correct term), while the most of the crew showed signs of demoralization.

 

  

    Wow! I can honestly say that sounds Russian allright. Sounds like the same tripe they've been serving since at least 1917. Kinda like something you'd hear in WW2 or Korea, or Vietnam. We would get a nice dose every once in awhile during the cold war overseas. Seriously though, the thought of them overflying one of our ships does not bother me at all. If we are going to exercise our right of free passage in the Black Sea which they consider their water, we can expect it. Im sure the officers and men on board the DDG were briefed this would likely happen. And to be honest, I think they are going to have ringside seats to history.

    Actually, if I may wax nostalgic, I only recall one instance of a Russian flying directly over my ship. They usually flew alongside and out a ways, like a mile or two. Yes, I saw this more than a few times in 3 deployments on two ships. On this particular occasion, we (DD-971) had been following the Novorossiysk for about a month from Socotra all the way to almost Vladivostok, (we broke off finally near sakalin). Our helo would occasionally fly over their flight deck to say hi in our usual friendly annoying American way. The funny part was when one day the helo decided to hover in front of their bridge. They fired a flare right at him. That afternoon as I recall, Two Yak-38s flew over us, wheeled, then flew darn near right between our masts. Actually not a bad piece of flying. They then went back to their ship and landed. Guess they had to make a statement. No big deal, all part of the game. Doesn't matter if this is what was done 20 or 30 years ago. Its institutionalized memory. I can pretty much guarantee we would still do it to them.

   As for Russia buggering Ukraine, anyone really surprised? Ukraine, Georgia, Turkmenistan, the Baltic states, etc., etc. were all a part of the Soviet Union at one time. They had been incorporated partly as a Russian version of manifest destiny and partly as a buffer against further western and Turkish aggression. They had fought two wars with Germany, both terrible and costly. Prior to that an invasion by France. Not to mention a number of smaller off again, on again wars with the Turks/Ottomans, Austrians, French, the Balkan states, etc. Looking at it from their standpoint right or wrong, land means time in an invasion. Then there is also the usual suspects in global politics like economy. Think of all the industry and resources Russia gave up when those countries finally gained their freedom in 1990. So honestly, Im not surprised Russia would try to "re-integrate" Ukraine, or Georgia, etc. Im sure Putin has plenty of pressure from his nationalistic parties as well as his own inclinations. Do I agree with it or think its right? Don't even go there. People in Georgia and Ukraine should be able to decide for themselves their political future without fear of Russian intervention.

   What do I think we should do right now? That's a tough one. If Nato grows some balls and actually sends some ground units into Ukraine, they better be serious. You don't make a move like that half cocked. Honestly, the US military is bone tired after 14 years of war and endless rotations. Morale surprisingly still seems to be pretty good but I can imagine the groans if the next deployment is to Poland or Ukraine. You can only ask so much of a way too small military that has already been used and abused way too long for little gain no matter how professional. I think the other countries of Nato would need to bare a much greater burden in this, at least right off the bat. I don't see that happening in any meaningful way. Ukraine isn't a part of Nato and you can bet the ministers of Nato will be quick to point that out. No Nato treaty, no assistance given.

    And if we don't make a stand? Putin is the wild card isn't he? He's also not an idiot. You don't last this long in Russian politics and not have a few cards to play and the brains to play 'em. He has a LOT of nationalistic pressure to re-capture past Russian glory. He also has the upper hand in military sitting on Ukraines' border right now. Im sure those are Russian soldiers acting as agitators with the Russian speakers in the Ukrainian cities. Since when did Ukraine allow firearms to civilians? Some may have come from captured armories, but I figure most came from Russia. This is a game he feels he can win, or at least, get away with. He would have never started it in the first place if he didn't. The next few days and weeks should be very interesting.

Edited April 22, 2014 by pcpilot

[+Dave 2,322]

 

[+pcpilot 181]

Forget the first part of my comments about Russian propaganda and my experiances in the Navy. I was pointing out a little history of the area and what I think may be their motivations. Im saying its a dangerous situation the Russians have created. Putin has started this for whatever reason and I dont think we have a lot we can do about it unfortunately. I think he thinks he can get away with it. Whats so hard to understand?

Edited April 22, 2014 by pcpilot

[+Gepard 11,295]

Complete and utter bullshit.

 

As i said, its not my point of view. I think is russian propaganda. But it has a background.

 

I have spoken with a german SAM officer (Patriot battery).

And he said: "Theoretically it is possible to do what the russians tell us, that they have done. It is possible to blind or jam or suppress one single modern radar system. But not 2, 3 or more at one time.  Because in case of jamming the 2 or 3 radar units are able to triangulate the exact position of the jammer. With one radar system you get only the bearing of the jammer, but not the exact position. Thatswhy SAM units normaly form a network. ""

The rest of his technical explainations i have not really understood, but the essence was. "The russian story could be possible, because the US ship was alone. With 2 or 3 ships away it would not be possible."

 

He said, "could be possible" and "theoretically possible", not "i think that it happend in this way"

[+Dave 2,322]

Oh I know Gepard it didn't come from you. I was meaning the article. 

[+whiteknight06604 934]

 
 

[B52STRATO 215]

"I spit Kryptonite

 Big dick mystic

 Know to hypnotize"

 

What they would not do to rhyme ?!

[+pcpilot 181]

Been reading a lot of interesting articles lately on the escalating Ukraine situation. Here's more on Putins' motivations...

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-eyes-ukrainian-arms-prize-002642798.html

 

Here's another on the increase of Russian recon flights and the cold war cat and mouse tactics both sides still employ. Like I said, "institutionalized memory". Ahhhh, the memories...

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/23/world/europe/russian-bombers-intercepted/index.html

 

http://news.yahoo.com/u-russian-planes-flew-near-california-guam-upped-020022310.html;_ylt=A0SO8zQ8LWpTgx0AinNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzODd0NzlnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDM0Nl8x

Edited May 7, 2014 by pcpilot

[MigBuster 2,884]

Well it provides some good recent photos and an air show at least.