again also what about the training? USAF tactics since the heyday of the Eagle have been to kill em off at a distance. in the 80's right after Vietnam much attn was paid to dogfighting but every Eagle pilot would tell you his first choice was to hit the Migs way out there and NOT get in the phonebooth. i think most other western AF's expect to get up close before realizing that they'll have to go weapons hot and so train more for close in ACM. full on hostile encounter, i can't help but think that thrust vectoring will give the Raptor an edge if the pilot can stay awwake and keep his/her head. my bigger concern would be with the limited numbers, seeing an adversary with red stars on their wings throw a few squadrons of say Floggers up to catch the Amraam's then, sneak Flankers in after the missles are depleted. Either some Raptors will go down, or be forced to disengage causing the USAF to give up local air superiorety for the first time in decades........ but hey 187 is a fine enough number for DOD.