Why do combat sims get such low ratings? :(

[+Spectre_USA 7]

Just to pipe in again, very cool thread, lots of good input.

 

And if you want to get the scoop on virtual pilotage, don't go to a games magazine, try an aviation one.

 

Like Flight Journal, f`rinstance...

 

[Bill Posters 0]

...the ones that are controlling the industry are the kids.

 

Don't be too sure about that. Take a look at points 3 & 4 here.

 

I won't try to argue that the market hasn't changed over the years. Flashy graphics and instant gratification are certainly in favour these days. I just don't think age has as much to do with it as you might think.

 

It seems to me that it's more due to the fact that while the population of gamers is growing exponentially, the population of flight simming gamers is not growing nearly as much, if at all. It's a damned shame really but at least we have people like TK and Oleg Maddox keeping the genre alive.

[serverandenforcer 33]

Well, I'll just say this, in order to really have a desire to operate (i don't like the term play, because that's something that a child does with a game) a sim, you have to have a certain appreciation and fascination on how things work on an aircraft or a race car. Games don't care about the law of physics, because then your customer has to have an eductional understanding on how the real world works and what it's limits are. In a sim, you already have to know or are willing to invest time to learn about those things and are interested on how to operate at the envelope of those limits in situations that are at the balance of life and death. Your tools to help you to succeed is an indepth understanding of the technology that is available for you to use. This is what got me interested into sims when I was 10 years old. All of my friends could not understand why I was into them. When I tried to explain, they thought I was a nerd. Infact, one of my friends, who supposedly liked sims as well, got turned off from Jane's Longbow because it involved "too much" technology to understand for you to be able to effectively operate a mission and be succesfull in it. I've always was into military aviation when I was a kid not just because jets are cool, but because I alway wanted to know how everything worked and wanted to know if I could operate such equipment and be succesfull in doing so. However, my eye sight isn't the best, and know I would never have a chance in being a fighter pilot. A sim would be the closest thing that I can get to being that. I deliberately purchased Fleet Defender when it first came out to see if I can master the avionics on a F-14. My fascination in combat sims has expanded from the physics and technology involved to the planning of missions. No doubt, being in the military has fueled this interest because I have participated in training exercise where I've witnessed good planning, which involved time and co-ordination with other units and forces and I have to say it is freaken cool to see how a well planed mission carries out. Now, do you think an average teenager, who's g.p.a. is a C-, where a large percentage of them are now being diagnosed with ADD, and live a life where they're fed with the constant B.S. that the consequences of their actions don't matter, would have any interest at all in a sim? They don't want to learn, they can't stay focus on simple stuff, and they don't want to care. A sim requires the opposite of that to be enjoyed. And what's really sad, is that this basically began to really unfold when we were all teenagers, and those people are now our game critics, our movie stars, and our "American Idol" because they couldn't qualify for a better job that requires someone who has excelled in his/her education, is able to focus on a task at hand, and is dedicated to see it finished successfully.

Edited March 28, 2008 by serverandenforcer

[ironroad 218]

I'd say blame Hollywood. I know it sounds a little harsh, but seriously, look at this generation. Every time a dumb actor/actress gets arrested, the media is all over it and analyzes their hand gestures in their trial meticuliously, comming to the conclusion that their left thumb is sore.

 

In a world that worships stars to that extent, basically kids' conceptions on life are through the eyes of a movie camera.

 

This was brought up earlier: kids' conception of flight combat is based on movies like Top Gun and Pearl Harbor. When they see the amount of planning and thinking that it really takes, they're turned off.

 

Go to any action flick today. With such a sort attention span, the only movies that are successful are ones where one minute, the main character is running down a street being chased by a guy with a machine gun on a motorcycle, and the next minute, he's in a helicopter on the other side of the world nuking stuff.

 

Flight simming is just studying to them. When they need to think that hard, they just avoid it.

 

As for F4, that was a different generation. Also targeted to a different age group that would tolerate and enjoy a study sim. Today's sims are still targeted to the same age group, but the ones that are controlling the industry are the kids.

 

 

Most people in this society are too...forgive me, but too stupid to think beyond what is right in front of their face.

 

The majority of people want to be able to "bunny hop" and "gun" through everything.

 

The gamer world is full of spoiled brats who lack any type of appreciation for anything (unless their peers qualify it as cool.)

 

Most youth refuse to think and act for themselves, instead they let the media and their friends do their thinking for them, this also applies to the 18-24 crowd as well.

 

Flight Sims require a lot of thinking, but also common sense, two things that most people lack (let alone younger people.)

 

 

Edited March 28, 2008 by ironroad

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Baloney.

 

We blame everybody else but ourselves.

 

Military and Space strategery games are very popular, take much thinking, but most of those players have no interest in combat flight sims. I wonder why?

[Basher11 0]

The steep learning curve scares most people away.  Besides, people who are writing the reviews belong to the new generation.  Too much keys for them to remember and flight model, avionics, combat manuever ... etc are too much for them and it takes professional people to understand what that is all about.

 

I think the hardest core flight simulation is Falcon 4, F-15, F/A 18 and Longbow.  Third Wire is taking us back to the good old days when we first had EA's USNF. Onle a small set of keys and very use-friendly interface and a easy to use mission editor.

[+ST0RM 145]

I may have missed this, but another thing is that sims last longer than most other games. Of course, there have been exceptions. F4 has been around for years and is still used as a benchmark for new sims to beat. LOMAC tried and did pretty well, but it had such a high learning curve and demanded a very high end machine, it turned many mid-level simmers away. MSFS is in a class of it's own, but I still see people playing/modding FS98. Their Combat FS series was ok, but they half-assed the sequals and people gave up on them. FSX has series potential, but again, it's a hog. There are only a few elite simmers who can run it on highest settings or on an OS that isnt a PITA. The IL-2 series is another game that has stood the test of time. It's one of the best WWII sims ever, if not the best.

 

The TW series has also enjoyed longevity (5+ years now) and is held in high regard for it's ability to be modded and low-learning curve.

 

Sims take a long time to build, in order to get things just right. Look at Jet Thunder and that other jet sim that was hyped at SimHQ. They have been in development for quite some time. Granted they are a "cottage industry" (for lack of a better term) production and on a low budget.

 

Hopefully we'll see a resurgence in sims. I've got some ideas from a current aviators perspective, that I'd like to see implemented in a sim. These are based observations of the current air campaign over Iraq and Afghanistan that I think can be adapted into a very playable and enjoyable sim. Not just dropping JDAMs, but the way things actually work on any given day and how things evolve.

 

Speaking of which, time to step to my jet.

 

Storm

[Stick 773]

I live with a budding psychologist who strives everyday to get in touch with her emotions. She tells me I have a chronic obsession with this game. Probably. I couldn't fly for real so... however she's wrong! Period. Its a field of interest.

 

I dont like watching T.V. But I love reading or listening to good jazz or old rock.

 

Every time I go out,wherever I am I will look skyward. There's nothing like the a night sky from on top of a mountain. Or a sunset from 30,000 feet. Or a even a sunrise from that high. Or higher.

 

Darn it cant seem to make up my mind.

 

'Anyone who yearns to fly essentially yearns for peace.' Besides you are just a little closer to heaven.

 

My father flies for a living. One day at home and he's ready to climb the wall. And he's being doing it for 30 years now.

[Mannie 21]

Simple.

Like everything in life. the higher the rating, the lower the quality.

[kesegy 5]

i agree with previous posters in thinking the main issue here concers using higher brain functions.

simming equates learning, and as soon as they even hint they should learn something new, kids get discouraged blitz fast.

adults are no better too, 3 hard yanks on the joystick, they crash and the fun is over. they just look at the myriad of instruments in the cockpit and shut down instantly. reading 200-300 page manuals doesn't help to draw crowds in either.

 

kinda reminds me of that simpsons episode, when bart was playing some game on playstation 1, and the second he realised he was learning state capitals while playing the game, he kicked the tv saying something like: hey, don't try to teach me stuff

 

you just have to love that feeling of flight, the airplanes or the associated history to have any enjoyment out of flight sims.

otherwise, it's just moving through the air from point a to point b, ocassionaly blowing something up, all that while looking at mediocre graphics (by current standards at least) and hearing repetitive engine sounds.

 

you either love it or you don't. and no gaming mag review is gonna change how you feel.

[Stick 773]

One thing though, they shouldn't have idiots reviewing sim games.

[SkyStrike 15]

I'd like to add someting else here:

As we all know most combat flight sims are stuck in the WWII era...and as or those that proceed further... they mostly halt at Vietnam. and for the very few that proceed further than that; They do not proceed any further than the Cold War end or to the early '80's

 

 

AFAIK, most the modern jet combat sims released over the past 8-10 years lack modern jets....except maybe Atari's Falcon series...and the modern jets for all the other sims are mostly if not completerly, third party add-ons (which I really appreciate very much)...

 

In other words; If some game developer were to create a sim similar to Jane's USAF with better graphics, flight model, avionics and STOCK F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, F-22s plus some of the other modern combat jets... It would definitely sell.....

 

Another Example i'd like to quote is Lock On: Modern air combat. Even though i haven't played it as such, I didn't bother to get it because the Tomcat, Hornet, Nighthawk & some of the other jets were only AI... they actually made Frogfoots flyable & Tomcats AI ?????!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

GOOD HEAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???????!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kirsten 0]

This game is like an Unimog or Landrover: very good in rough terrain but lousy on the street or on the motorway, something for hobbyist but no good for an average driver doing 30000 km per year or somebody who loikes sportcars.......

Conclusion: I don't give a damn about ratings, it's comparing cows with horses, apples with blackberries, etc.

We are in a niche, let's stay there and just have fun and enjoy this fantastic and unique sim with it's unlimited possibilities and very active community !! :yes:

 

Aju,

 

Derk

[Wolf65 0]

Wasn't LOMAC made by the Russians? That would explane the small amount of western aircraft.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Yup, made by Russians and actual Russian pilots were called to test the simulation. Not so easy with NATO fighters

 

Actually sims(and sim-ish games) are mostly about three preiods - WW1, WW2, some modern stuff that sometimes no one even seen in combat yet. The period after WW2 with gradual advances in avionics and weapons is filling very slowly. And combat aircraft between the two world wars seems to be completely abandoned...

[+Spectre_USA 7]

Wasn't LOMAC made by the Russians? That would explane the small amount of western aircraft.

 

Bingo!

 

I beta tested for "Eagle Dynamics" for a year, doing the US side, A-10 and F-15.

 

They have made a SU-25 add-on, and have an upcoming one with the Ka-52 "Black Shark." Both Soviet steel I have no interest in.

 

Except for maybe trailing flames and smoke...

 

[Wolf65 0]

I rather like flying the russians (especialy the Su-33). :)

 

Anyway one thing occured to me, are there any newer flight sims that feature the Tomcat?

I know a couple of the older ones (Jane's USNF '97 and Fleet Defender Gold), but are there any newer ones?

[SkyStrike 15]

I rather like flying the russians (especialy the Su-33). :)

 

Anyway one thing occured to me, are there any newer flight sims that feature the Tomcat?

I know a couple of the older ones (Jane's USNF '97 and Fleet Defender Gold), but are there any newer ones?

 

Nah... Not really, AFAIK...

 

Thank heavens for the Mirage Factory's F-14...

 

Many thanks to the Mirage Factory as well.....

[MigBuster 2,884]

I rather like flying the russians (especialy the Su-33). :)

 

Anyway one thing occured to me, are there any newer flight sims that feature the Tomcat?

I know a couple of the older ones (Jane's USNF '97 and Fleet Defender Gold), but are there any newer ones?

 

Nothing commercial - except maybe AceCombat :)

 

 

Not that id want to promote it (dont use it myself )but I think Red Viper (goes over Falcon 4.0) has a 2D and 3D cockpit for the F-14 made by Aeyes - not sure how good the flight model is though:

 

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthr...ht=f-14+cockpit

[Gr.Viper 131]

Hmm... I have RV installed... Supposed to be pretty hardcore. But I can't handle cockpits there. The only thing I can find and activate is the ejection seat (was exploring Mig-21 pit: -Now, where's the brake... *click* Nah... *click* Nah... *click* *WOOOSH!!!*). Even engine starter on F-16 gives up on me.

 

Just checked - RV has F-14(B) pit shown on screenies in that topic. :yes: But the plane is not to be seen anywhere in three campaigns... Furballs only...

[MigBuster 2,884]

Hmm... I have RV installed... Supposed to be pretty hardcore. But I can't handle cockpits there. The only thing I can find and activate is the ejection seat (was exploring Mig-21 pit: -Now, where's the brake... *click* Nah... *click* Nah... *click* *WOOOSH!!!*). Even engine starter on F-16 gives up on me.

 

Just checked - RV has F-14(B) pit shown on screenies in that topic. :yes: But the plane is not to be seen anywhere in three campaigns... Furballs only...

 

 

still OT

 

Yep - theres a good chance you will actually have to learn what every single switch does in that cockpit

 

depends how much you like F-14s really though

[+Dave 2,322]

I think someone said it earlier. Most of these writers are not Flight Simmers at all. In fact they probably argured over who was going to write the review. So I don't take any stock in their reviews.

[Silverbolt 104]

well, probaly other reason it's because are some kind of people with one vision and dont want explore the Sim's possibility at all and get influentiated by others opinion.

basically the brazil's simulation fans or just like IL-2 or Lock ON or Falcon 4.0 a lot of them never heard about SF series and when people play, gets strange with SF series engine and give up of this sim and run out there saying bulls**ts.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Silverbolt

[Fubar512 1,350]

A little story, that's just a bit off topic.

 

Back when we were beta testing the release candidate for WoE, a bunch of us got together for a some really killer online play. After everyone else finished for the evening, Dave (USAFMTL) and I decided to try adding a few third-party aircraft, the uber-AI mod, the RWR symbology mod, the BVR mod distance mod, and the then-current weps pack to to the sim, and then made sure that we both had the same install. We then selected an online strike mission, and decided to fly cover for a strike package (we both selected F-15As).

 

While on the way to the target, I saw the tell-tale bat wing symbols of airborne intercept radars appear at the 12 O'clock position of my RWR. Dave and I commanded our wingmen to engage, which they did with Sparrows. Dave and I followed up with Sparrow shots of our own, and watched as the missiles struck home and killed the majority of what turned out to be a flight of MiG-23s.

 

I then heard my RWR track-warning tone go off, and saw more bat wing symbols appear at my three O'clock. A flight of MiG-29As had snuck in above us while we were occupied with the 23's. Dave dropped his tanks, broke hard right , and engaged as the '29's merged with our flight. I saw a '29 flash across my nose going from 3-9, and I turned after him, smoking him with a '9L. My attention then turned to Dave, who calmly asked if I'd very much mind getting "these effin bandits off my tail". I looked up and saw him in a vicious rolling scissors with a Fulcrum, with two more Fulcrums on his six. I went into burner, pulled up and to the right, and got tone on one of the "specks" in front of me....but, was it Dave, or was it one of the Fulcrums? "Dave, dump flares, now!" I set a '9L loose, and watched it snake it's way into the bandit that was nearest to Dave's six. Dave had by now hosed his bandit with his M61, and was attempting to reverse on the remaining Fulcrum, which was pointless, as I'd already sent two 'limas after him. The first one was fooled by the bandit's countermeasures, the second one blew his enpennage right off. Splash three!

 

Dave and I then flew off for home....

 

Try getting that level of satisfaction from any other type of game or sim.