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UK_Widowmaker

Traitor?.. or Defender of Civil Liberties?

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He leaked classified info in which he signed a statement saying he wouldnt, he needs to be prosecuted. I signed the same statement he did and if I did that, I would be going to jail.

 

While we are on the subject, the NSA did not listen in on conversations, it collected phone numbers to analyze patterns to find terrorists. Post 9/11, people were accusing the government of not doing enough to prevent it from happening. NOW the government is doing just what the people wanted, now they are going to bitch. If the average Joe using the Freedom of Informaiton Act asked to see what the NSA was collecting...they would get a UPS truck at their house for 400 to 500 ring binders with phone numbers in them. The NSA doesnt give a fuck if your are calling your mom on Mothers Day. They care about some asshole terrorist calling some other asshole terrorist from the Middle East who lives in Germany about 500 times a month. I do not feel violated in the least bit, because I am not who they are looking for. These last 12 years have been us in that posture.

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He states he is an ordinary guy - yet at the same time declares himself to be judge, jury and expert on the issue - even though it sounds like he doesn't understand much about comms security.

 

It sounds like they can target suspects regarding some forms of communication - hasn't this always been the way.......

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If they did not lisiten to any conversations, then why did Gen. Petraus conversation conviently come out since he broke no law after the government had all his emails & phone calls. He had an affair just like Clinton, but apparently is not against the law, only lieing about it.

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The Gen. Petraeus thing stinks to high heaven. The two aren't related. There was something else going on in that case.

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So the same people who complain about gun control and socialized healthcare as horrible attacks on civil rights and liberties are totally fine with the same government having a warrantless surveillance capability, the likes of which the STASI could only have dreamt of, because terrorism. Right.

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That question can only be answered if:

 

-It is proven that the program indeed violates the US constitution,

 

-It is proven that the papers the Congress voted for did not clearly state that they allow for the creation of such programs,

 

-It is proven that the personal life of most Americans/citizens of the world is violated to an extent as great as naysayers present it to be.

 

Until then, I don't think I can have much of an opinion on this.

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I am unhappy to think that the American security agencies, over which I have ABSOLUTELY NO DEMOCRATIC CONTROL WHATSOEVER may intercept my communications, consult my financial records, scrutinise my political leanings or otherwise big brother my existence or that of my fellow countrymen. 

 

He has betrayed they confidence of a security agency which has betrayed the confidence of the citizens who employ it to protect them from threats. I can understand that many Americans will be upset about this, but the further extension of the powers of American security agencies is a subject for concern, in my opinion. 

 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100220952/edward-snowden-has-exposed-both-the-ambition-and-the-incompetence-of-obamas-security-state/

 

Meanwhile, as a non-American, I say the Americans may theoretically be our allies, but they should snoop on their people the way their people agree democratically to allow them, and we'll snoop on ours our own way under our own legislation. Britain is not a subsidiary power and should not put up with British subjects becoming the targets of America's security agencies. If they want to co-operate with our services, fine, but operating against British people in Britain without the knowledge and agreement of the British authorities, and not subject to British law and in British courts, is inadmissible. 

 

Terrorism is a good excuse to extend all kinds of government powers...

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I don´t see how this are really breaking news. I thought this kind of comms surveillance was assumed to happen early after 9-11, and never was really worried about it happening. On the other hand, this doesn´t leave much credit to lecture the chinese for their spying. Bitching about some other power spying on you seems a little ludicrous to me, anyway, since most probably you are doing the same as much as you can.

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Why not both a traitor and a defender of civil liberties?

Clearly, the organization he worked for (US government) sees him as a traitor for revealing its secrets.

However, what is legal and what is right can be two very different things.

Additionally, if I swear to uphold the Constitution and the the government agency I am working for is contradicting the Constitution, then he really isn't a traitor.

The dilemma he faced is similar to an enlisted soldier who is pretty sure he has been given an illegal order.

If you follow the order, you will be as guilty as the person giving the order and potentially prosecuted as such.

If you don't follow the order, you will be treated as having disobeyed a superior and punished accordingly.

 

He chose to take the punishment believing he was right.

If that is what really happened and he is right, I respect him for what he did.

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Still a better love story than Twilight. I'm not too happy with this guy but I'd take him over Bradley Manning any day. I just wonder if a bunch of Hollywood low lives will make a video supporting this guy too? ;)


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That story is putting a biased spin on the actual reason. When the whole Assange/Wikileaks thing broke, and news agencies started publishing details, those were likewise blocked where possible while all were told not to view them. It was for the same reason: CMI.

 

The wide publishing of classified info due to a leak or other accidental/deliberate occurrence does NOT mean that info has been declassified. It's stupid, yes, because if the info is now EVERYWHERE there are no controls on it and to maintain that perspective flies in the face of logic...but the rules regarding classified info quite often are illogical and no one has seen fit to alter them.

 

So as far as the gov't is concerned, even if it's on CNN.com's front page, it's still classified and no NIPR system should be viewing them, that's what the SIPR is for. Of course, the normal procedure for contaminated NIPR systems wouldn't apply, because those are meant to scrub that stuff off the system and prevent its spread. When it's on CNN, you can hardly prevent the spread any further, so it's a futile exercise...but it remains the SOP.

 

It's got nothing to do with "censoring" what the military rank and file are seeing, it has to do with keeping classified information limited to those who "need to know"...and the entire US military obviously doesn't need to know the details of this program.

 

As mentioned, this story pretty much equates to "remember what you thought the gov't has been doing since 9/11? We have proof now and a name for the system." This isn't really news, it's a confirmation.

 

 

Personally, I do object because I think too many liberties have been given over in the name of "security." Frankly, not enough citizens are dying from terrorist attacks to warrant this. Obviously it's hard to prove a negative, as the gov't likes to do, saying the existence of these programs has prevented hundreds or more deaths over the last 10 years. We can't know that for certain, since they classify those results. :grin:

However, unless we're having annual death counts in the range of 9/11 due to terrorist attacks, I think it would cost us LESS to quit this. The TSA is a massive money hole, and it seems to waste even more time and money than it ever does anything worthwhile. When 10,000 Americans die a year from terrorism, then we can talk about these measures. When the number is under 1000, though, I accept that as "the price of freedom" that so many others seem to believe in. To expect only the military to pay it is silly, we are "of the people".

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How does this person who only has a GED get that kind of job and that kind of clearance with access to that kind of info?  Something is very wrong with this picture.

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How does this person who only has a GED get that kind of job and that kind of clearance with access to that kind of info?  Something is very wrong with this picture.

 

 

Because he was brilliant,and excelled at what he did. Many amazingly gifted people become so bored by our educational system that they drop out of high school.

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Traitor..in my own opinion..

 

And...by the way... if you have a smartphone (even old cell phone), credit card, bankomat and so and so... you are controlled.

 

I have no problem if someone monitor my activities... no things to hide.

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The point about all this is not how the data is currently being used. I think most of us do not think the United States Government is the least interested in governing all of our daily lives by using this data. While I live in Sweden and sure as sunrise is affected by this; I honestly do not care much. If the US wants to have a look about my debate about replica guns or loveletters to my gal, then that is their waste of time.

 

HOWEVER

 

The big point is what could happen if somebody else got this data. While an invasion of CONTUS is not very likely, who is to say the next administration - or the one after that - will go a little further to stop terrorism. And then a little more further. And then a little more further. Things like this could and has been turned scary rather quickly. In the Netherlands, registration of religion was common. Oh, dear - the Nazis invaded. They found that little piece of innocent information very useful, and quite alot of people was sent into gas chambers.

 

Regarding the title;  I think he is both. The PRISM system is clearly a step too far, and not worthy of a man who got a nobel peace price. That he did nothing to earn it does not help.

Edited by JonathanRL
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JM

 

One American dying at the hands of a terrorist is not the price of freedom. One shouldn't have to due by a terrorist at all. Whether it's one or a thousand, the asshole needs to be found and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Also it's easy to say "it's the price of freedom" until it's your family member who is killed. Didn't you say your sister was in one of the towers on 9/11 and got out in time? I'm sure she would agree with my last statement.

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I tend to agree with streakeagle on this on, he's both depending on your point of view.

life's not black and white, it's just full of different shades of grey.

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But the point is all of the Patriot act, warrantless wiretapping, warrantless electronic spying on citizens, secret CIA renditions and drone assassinations couldn't stop actual terrorists like those two brothers in Boston. Who had been to Chechnya and back. They only seem to stop terrorist plots that are conveniently timed to coincide with internal politics, and where the only evidence of their actual existence is because the government says they exist. Supposedly all these extraordinary government powers are in place because Al Quaida and islamists are a huge threat to our freedom and democracy, but then we give them support in the form of weapons supplies and advisors so they can topple secular regimes in Libya and now Syria and impose sharia rule there. If the terrorists are such a huge threat to western democracy that we need to become police states, why is McCain in Syria posing with them for photos and Hollande in France calling for military action to support them?

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He leaked classified info in which he signed a statement saying he wouldnt, he needs to be prosecuted. I signed the same statement he did and if I did that, I would be going to jail.

 

While we are on the subject, the NSA did not listen in on conversations, it collected phone numbers to analyze patterns to find terrorists. Post 9/11, people were accusing the government of not doing enough to prevent it from happening. NOW the government is doing just what the people wanted, now they are going to bitch. If the average Joe using the Freedom of Informaiton Act asked to see what the NSA was collecting...they would get a UPS truck at their house for 400 to 500 ring binders with phone numbers in them. The NSA doesnt give a f*** if your are calling your mom on Mothers Day. They care about some asshole terrorist calling some other asshole terrorist from the Middle East who lives in Germany about 500 times a month. I do not feel violated in the least bit, because I am not who they are looking for. These last 12 years have been us in that posture.

He IS A TRAITOR!

 

Dave is right, I pledged not to devulge ANY CLASSIFIED information when talking/emailing on a government phone/computer. Hell I couldn't tell my family WHEN I was coming home after my deployment!

 

I guess military members active & retired (except for bradley manning) take it seriously.

 

I bet you the minute another attack hits Americans at home or abroad, People (Congress & Senate) will be sreaming why did'nt we prevent it!

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