AI nihilistic, altruistic, and ritualistic behavior

[luft46]

Hello guys,

I have installed the SFP1 WoV, and I've noticed something, sometimes when you persecute some aircraft, these just fly straight, they do not try to dodge the attack or do maneuvers, and not only happens with bombers, also with fighters, which seems unrealistic. My question is: Is there any mod or something that can be done to remedy this issue of AI?

[Panama Red]

SF2 !!!

[usafphantom2]

Hey,The guy that comes up with an AI mod for aircraft would be a real hero around here.

[MigBuster]

Hello guys,

I have installed the SFP1 WoV, and I've noticed something, sometimes when you persecute some aircraft, these just fly straight, they do not try to dodge the attack or do maneuvers, and not only happens with bombers, also with fighters, which seems unrealistic. My question is: Is there any mod or something that can be done to remedy this issue of AI?

 

 

If you mean they fly straight and ignore you they are probably on bingo fuel - the SF2 AI will fly an evasion profile - but then again the SF2 AI is too unrealistic in that it seems to know where you are the whole time - to make it more gamey I guess.

[Icarus999]

Hello guys,

I have installed the SFP1 WoV, and I've noticed something, sometimes when you persecute some aircraft, these just fly straight, they do not try to dodge the attack or do maneuvers, and not only happens with bombers, also with fighters, which seems unrealistic. My question is: Is there any mod or something that can be done to remedy this issue of AI?

 

Yes.... patch the game to the october 2008 level and you will see a huge improvement.

[+streakeagle]

The problem with Oct 2008 level is that the AI has a good chance of running into the ground, but is otherwise far superior to the AI in any previous release.

[Fubar512]

In some cases that is realistic behavior.

 

In a given scenario, such as a flight of F-86s vs MiG-15s (SF2 KAW mod), the MiG-15s wil bug out by climbing to cruise altitude when they reach a bingo fuel state. Often, they'll do so in Mil power, and the F-86s will find themselves hard-pressed to follow their lighter, more powerful adversaries.

 

Call that a happy accident if you will, but it that case, it definetely adds to the immersion.

[+streakeagle]

It was never realistic to come across a flight of 4 attack planes and have them hold formation straight and level as you gun each one down. It works for B-17s/B-24s in massive formations in WW2. But in the Vietnam time frame the game is supposed to be about, no one held formation under attack. Wingman blows up... you break hard and scramble to figure out what is going on before you blow up too. SF2 swings to the other extreme. It is fairly easy to drive enemies off their intended paths, since they see you coming even when you approach from below and behind. The inability to surprise an enemy creates more interesting dogfights, but makes it impossible to properly simulate historical combat where 4 out of 5 targets died without even knowing they were under attack. So, when I make historically based missions, my only recourse to start the fight at the point where visual contact was made. Neither friend nor foe can be "bounced".

[+baffmeister]

In some cases that is realistic behavior.

 

In a given scenario, such as a flight of F-86s vs MiG-15s (SF2 KAW mod), the MiG-15s wil bug out by climbing to cruise altitude when they reach a bingo fuel state. Often, they'll do so in Mil power, and the F-86s will find themselves hard-pressed to follow their lighter, more powerful adversaries.

 

Call that a happy accident if you will, but it that case, it definetely adds to the immersion.

 

I have seen this happen a number of times with the KAW install and when it does happen it looks very realistic .

 

For SF-1 installs you may want to experiment with very high cruise speed for the various types of aircraft. There are some problems with this approach but also some work arounds. At one time I had a small SF-1 install with all the cruise speeds set at 600kts, 550kts or 500kts, in meters per second of course. The fast mover strike aircraft I set at 600kts, the typical mach 1 plus multi role aircraft I set at 550kts and the subsonic types I set at 500kts. This made things much more interesting when trying to chase down enemy aircraft. If you see a Su-7 go flashing past at low level going in the opposite direction and doing 600kts you may not even bother trying to chase it! From what I remember, with this set up the AI lead would try and go as fast as possible without using afterburner but the wingmen AI would use afterburner to try and get into formation. At the time I tested this approach I was using the quicker take off mod and the formations would still get strung out when playing in real time. With the formation take off edit this may be less of a problem. If you do the Alt-N thing the formations will put themselves together as per normal. Using the high cruise speeds may also screw up the synchronization / timing of any supporting aircraft but never looked into that to any extent. On the plus side, with SF-1 you can try whatever you like and never worry about it getting broken in a patch.

[+streakeagle]

While modding SFP1 guarantees nothing will get broken in a patch, SF2 may have reached the point of no more patches. Stable since July 2012 patch. The last hope for SF2 is that all the mobile SF releases draw in new SF2 PC customers to generate demand and cash for continuing SF2 addons. But the fact that TK only posts in his own forums to announce the latest mobile release or a desperate tech support issue ignoring questions/comments by long time SF/SF2 fans is a very bad sign.

[+baffmeister]

While modding SFP1 guarantees nothing will get broken in a patch, SF2 may have reached the point of no more patches. Stable since July 2012 patch. The last hope for SF2 is that all the mobile SF releases draw in new SF2 PC customers to generate demand and cash for continuing SF2 addons. But the fact that TK only posts in his own forums to announce the latest mobile release or a desperate tech support issue ignoring questions/comments by long time SF/SF2 fans is a very bad sign.

 

My hope is that the SF-2 series has reached a level that will insure continuing sales over the next few years with the occasional no charge update to keep it viable. Maybe a few more expansion packs and payware add-ons to generate some interest and revenue. Having gone through the SF-1 and SF-2 cycle I don't think I could handle SF-3 if it ever happened. I have yet to purchase SF-2 NA but when the time comes I think Wrench should get a commission on the sale because my main intent for that title is to get some WW2 naval action going. With that and maybe the purchase of SF-2 Vietnam I should have enough to stay entertained for the next decade!

[Fubar512]

SF2 swings to the other extreme. It is fairly easy to drive enemies off their intended paths, since they see you coming even when you approach from below and behind. The inability to surprise an enemy creates more interesting dogfights, but makes it impossible to properly simulate historical combat where 4 out of 5 targets died without even knowing they were under attack. So, when I make historically based missions, my only recourse to start the fight at the point where visual contact was made. Neither friend nor foe can be "bounced".

 

Streak,

 

Either you don't play the sim very often, or you are limiting yourself to a very limited mission type or scenario. I cannot keep track of the times that I've bounced enemy formations, or the enemy bounced my flight. I'm I'm not talking about just bouncing formations of bombers or strike aircraft, either.

[+streakeagle]

I have played the current patch revision quite a bit.

Quite a few patch revisions ago, TK took away the visibility arc functionality.

The enemy can always see you... just a matter of whether he chooses to react to you.

 

In my historical Vietnam missions, MiG-17s coming into the blind spots of F-105s never ever worked due to the visual spotting arcs being disabled.

I had discussed this on the Third Wire forums with TK, and he favored the dogfight over the old fly straight and level behavior using this simple cheat.

I am not sure what sim you have been flying if enemy fighters allow you to bounce them... unless the AI skill levels are set low where they may act oblivious to your aircraft?

[Fubar512]

Enemy skill is either hard or medium.

[+streakeagle]

This is a very simple mission I created starting with the stock F-4J vs MiG-17F: 1xF-4C flying from the low 6 (a blind spot for every single seat aircraft) of 4xMiG-17F.

Try getting less than 5nm from the MiGs before they all magically reverse to engage.

I cannot construct a fighter vs. fighter mission where one side does not automatically spot the other and engage WVR.

 

 

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[AircraftMission002]

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[Callsign]

GroundCallsignID=1

FACCallsignID=1

TACCCallsignID=1

Edited February 10, 2013 by streakeagle

[Fubar512]

I've just smoked two MiG-15bis, coming up on their 6-low, at the onset of the fight. They both attempted to jump on my six at first , but lost me when I pulled a hard reversal in the clouds, finding myself between their four to six position. Once I got behind them, they didn't react to my presence until they began shedding sheet metal.

 

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Waypoint[06].Speed=246.051834
Waypoint[07].Command=WAYPOINT
Waypoint[07].Position=269463.126035,296649.037177,3000.000000
Waypoint[07].Size=1500.000000
Waypoint[07].Speed=246.164307
Waypoint[08].Command=APPROACH
Waypoint[08].Position=293405.807049,245364.631772,1524.000000
Waypoint[08].Size=1500.000000
Waypoint[08].Speed=111.599998
Waypoint[09].Command=LAND_LINEUP
Waypoint[09].Position=275975.999190,251625.000000,762.000000
Waypoint[09].Size=1500.000000
Waypoint[09].Speed=84.696289
Waypoint[10].Command=LAND_TOUCHDOWN
Waypoint[10].Position=275976.000000,259966.500000,0.000000
Waypoint[10].Size=50.000000
Waypoint[10].Speed=62.000000
Nation=USAF
FormationType=USFighter
PilotTrainingStandard=EXCELLENT
Loadout=AirToAir
AmmoPercent=100
FuelPercent=100
TracerMixRatio=6
Texture=54thFIW
Squadron=
Aircraft[01].AircraftNumber=0
Aircraft[02].AircraftNumber=4
[Callsign]
GroundCallsignID=9
FACCallsignID=1
TACCCallsignID=1

[+Gepard]

For first generation the best solution to get better AI behavior is the Wings Over Israel add on Operation Kadesh.

[+baffmeister]

In SF-2 I have shot down quite a few aircraft by sneaking up on their 6 o'clock low position but it's always after the initial merge. So maybe TK has some code thing going on were everyone sees everyone else at the initial merge and then after that the 6 o'clock sneak attack becomes possible?

[+streakeagle]

Duplicate those results with the mission I provided. The F-4C is 3,000 feet lower and trailing by 6 nm. The instant you hit 5 nm, All four MiG-17Fs turn left to engage. Don't know what you are doing different in your mission. I don't have any mods installed. Give me a stock mission where you can approach from dead 6 without AI reaction so I can duplicate the performance. There will have to be some difference in AI settings/mission/waypoint or something else. By TK's own words, the AI is programmed to be visually aware 360 degrees, the blind arcs listed in the ini files are disregarded. This was a feature he added to address complaints about flights not reacting to approaching enemies.

 

Usually, when they go straight and level without reaction it is either due to out of fuel/ammo or pilot skill.

I cannot have AI approach my flight from the rear or approach an AI flight from the rear without the flight being bounced magically reacting.

I discussed this fact on the Third Wire forums and TK was pretty clear on why that was.

Edited February 11, 2013 by streakeagle

[+streakeagle]

Keep in mind the MiG-17F has no RWR and is specified to be completely blind to the rear:

 

[DetectSystem]

RadarType=RANGING

VisualBlindArc=5,6,7

VisualRestrictedArc=4L,8L,12L

MaxVisibleDistance=6000.0

HasRWR=FALSE

 

It seems to be no small coincidence that the MaxVisibleDistance for the F-4 is 10000.0 meters, about 5.4 nm.

So I don't understand what would be different in an F-86 vs MiG-15 mission that you wouldn't see the exact same results I get in an F-4C vs MiG-17F mission.

[+streakeagle]

I have varied the response of my original posted mission by switching to P-51D vs 4xSpitfire IXc and altering the starting range. I have gotten both immediate engagement and steady straight behavior. In the steady straight behavior, I have to get very close (< 0.2 nm) before I see engagement behavior. I still need to do more testing to isolate what triggers engagement behavior. Possibly related to whether the mission starts near max visible detection range or inside it? I need to move my IP and objective waypoints further out to make sure they aren't triggering behavior changes.

[+Gepard]

Keep in mind the MiG-17F has no RWR and is specified to be completely blind to the rear:

 

Do you have heared from Sirena warning device? Gave you a warning beep if radar locked on. Was developed to counter the radar range finder of the Sabre. Was used the first time in Korea 1953. Reduced the soviet loss rate significantly.

The MiG-17F had such Sirena system and it had a radar range finder too.

[+streakeagle]

It is not listed in the data ini file RWR = FALSE, same as the prop planes. When I substitute and F-4 for a P-51 vs the Spitfire, The Spitfires still fly straight no matter what range. But no matter what range I start the F-4 at, the MiG-17Fs always engage. It has proven very hard to isolate what is going on. The AI for the MiG-17Fs may somehow be different than the Spitfires. The only key difference I see in the data.ini files is that a MiG-17F is a fighter while a Spitfire is listed as an attack. Ran out of time to test that angle last night, maybe more testing tonight.

[Wrench]

again, another 3W mistake ... Spitfire's are FIGHTERS

[+streakeagle]

Well, it might be fair to say that after the introduction of jets, props were mainly used for attack, as the P-51 and F4U in Korea. Of course, in their SF2I Expansion Pack role, they might still be regarded primarily as fighters? But I think all aircraft were used as multi-role (at least recon and strafing if not outright bombing?).