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Help fund the Strike Fighters 2 Windows 10 update!

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Good points streakeagle.

Now I know how to word it better; Customers unable to venture out of the Gog/Steam realm are unlikely to put effort into learning to control + play Strike Fighters 2. They are even more unlikely to appreciate its modding possibilities.

Though I may never really understand it, because I am not like that at all.

On a side note. I remember ordering the 'Battle over Europe' addon for IL-2 Forgotten Battles, years ago. In the DVD case was a brochure. Besides  the MS Flight Sim addons advertised, there were pages showcasing Strike Fighters Project 1 + Wings over Vietnam. Of course I took note immediately. Combat flight sims were already a rare thing.  Maybe I should try to find that brochure again, and scan these SF pages.

Edit; Pretty sure I threw it away. IIRC it was a https://www.justflight.com brochure. They did sell Strike Fighters for a while, as shown here: Web Archive 2003

Edited by gerwin

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From TK:

 

Quote

Thanks for all your support!

We were hoping to get this funded so we can release the Windows 10 update this year, but sadly, we didn't reach the funding goal. Luckily, not all is lost since this is a "Keep it all" campaign, the amount raised will be used to partially fund the update early next year.

Everyone who contributed will get a confirmation e-mail next week, with access code to Third Wire Online Store where you can get your Windows 10 update free when it becomes available. If you've purchased from our store in the past and used different e-mail to contribute, please let us know so we can merge the account together.

We'll keep everyone here updated on our progress. Thank you!

 

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4 hours ago, sophocles said:

Man! That's fantastic news!  I'm getting a vibe that TK is falling in love with Strike Fighters PC again!

We can but hope!

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well he got 4K better than I expected lol...still its a chunk less for TK to find....hope he keeps his promise......not bad ,update for me for $1   lol     j\k

did donate considerably more

Edited by russouk2004

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ok then...but is he aware of modders community that could (hypothetically) work on a thing or two...only if he has a little good will?

Because he is always complaining of things that the company can not afford... But there are other ways...not only fundraising. With little help and encourage this game could be much more long time ago. 

I wonder why he is insisting in that W10 update...since it is old game and not so very popular ( "100 people buying them...") 

 In case - I did not contributed...was planning to..but I concluded that It will be better (mainly for me - same expense) if I will buy SF2 super pack (since i miss one or two DLC) 

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4 minutes ago, yakarov79 said:

ok then...but is he aware of modders community that could (hypothetically) work on a thing or two...only if he has a little good will?

Because he is always complaining of things that the company can not afford... But there are other ways...not only fundraising. With little help and encourage this game could be much more long time ago. 

I wonder why he is insisting in that W10 update...since it is old game and not so very popular ( "100 people buying them...") 

 In case - I did not contributed...was planning to..but I concluded that It will be better (mainly for me - same expense) if I will buy SF2 super pack (since i miss one or two DLC) 

My take is that Third Wire wants to keep selling their earlier investments. Even when it is not selling much, it is better then having to remove it from the catalog entirely. To keep it in the catalog the Windows 10 update is required.

When Third Wire is lacking funds and time, I recon they should NOT start a dialogue with the small SF user base. What else would it do then take more time, without bringing in any money.  I don't see a way that benefits both developer and users.

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One other factor, that I really don't know the answer to, is that the original Strike Fighters series started out in 2002. There are people out there that would probably enjoy the game that weren't even born then. Strike Fighters 2 came out in 2008, so there are probably some people that are now old enough to be interested in Strike Fighters, that have just plain never heard about it. It really would need to be re-marketed..and I'd argue that keeping the Strike Fighters 2 name does not really help. A bit of a rebranding with some new features might work wonders. I still think the key to success would be multiplayer (probably moreso than VR) but apparently that is hugely expensive. The hype that would be generated by watching half a dozen of us fly in MP on a strike against Haiphong or Port Stanley or Reykjavik would be phenomenal. I'm convinced that there is a market for SF2 type gameplay, but it has to be brought into the light by both the developer and us fans if we can get some improvements to showcase.

 

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I am a huge fan of multiplayer for SF2, but it was barely useable and unpopular as implemented in SFP1/WoX. TK has made it clear that only a very small minority actually use multiplayer, so it is far more cost effective for him to stick to focus on single player development. I have and love VR, but that is also a small minority of players. Other than a few bug fixes, I don't know what else TK could do to improve the sim with minimal time and money. All it really needs to compete with DCS World and IL-2 are: well-implemented multiplayer, VR, and a new terrain/graphics engine. But that is way out of TK's budget range in terms of money, time, and manpower. So, beyond this minor Win 10 compatibility fix, I don't  see SF2 evolving any further than modders can take it.

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2 hours ago, streakeagle said:

I am a huge fan of multiplayer for SF2, but it was barely useable and unpopular as implemented in SFP1/WoX. TK has made it clear that only a very small minority actually use multiplayer, so it is far more cost effective for him to stick to focus on single player development. I have and love VR, but that is also a small minority of players. Other than a few bug fixes, I don't know what else TK could do to improve the sim with minimal time and money. All it really needs to compete with DCS World and IL-2 are: well-implemented multiplayer, VR, and a new terrain/graphics engine. But that is way out of TK's budget range in terms of money, time, and manpower. So, beyond this minor Win 10 compatibility fix, I don't  see SF2 evolving any further than modders can take it.

Just look how far community-modded BMS has evolved from stock Falcon 4.0. BMS isn't a mass-market title either but they at least require you own the original game to use their mod, so it still sells steadily on Steam & GOG. With a little source code, almost anything is possible. But the default terrain isn't fantastic there either, even after 20 years of community development they still have minecraft coastlines too.

Multiplayer isn't a huge thing in flight simming. ED have said the same themselves when the shit-storm blew up around the paywall for the enhanced carrier add-on. So, they say they have a few hundred thousand players who NEVER go online. I bet there's a good proportion of them using easy avionics and all the other 'arcadey' elements who would appreciate SF2 as well. 90% of my DCS flying is online though & I've never got more than a couple of missions into any single-player campaign so I'm not representative of their main fan base, and conversely I don't fly BMS online (anymore) yet I still fly SF2 fairly regularly because it's so easy to pick up & play for just an hour or so when I don't have the time for planning & flying some long-ass mission in Korera or the Persian Gulf.

DCS & BMS are well represented on Youtube, Twitch & Discord. I'm sure that helps sales. The same can't be said of SF2. I subscribe to 1 SF2 Youtuber, Devin Horner, and I'm hard pressed to find any others with recent content. I think that's a good indicator of the current demand & level of interest in Strike fighters as a whole.

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Falcon 4 was a special case: the source code was leaked and those using it to produce new releases were not legally prosecuted. The new owners of the Falcon 4 license are permitting BMS to continue developing and distributing new code, but with a new condition: the BMS release must detect a stock Falcon 4 install on the host PC in order to run. TK has not released the source code for any SF series game and has exercised his intellectual property rights establishing that no one is legally authorized to reverse engineer or alter the original code. Without TK's permission and technical support, the SF series cannot be significantly improved.

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5 hours ago, streakeagle said:

Without TK's permission and technical support, the SF series cannot be significantly improved.

Isn't it that he said you can modd any way you want as long you not gonna sell and profit ?

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5 hours ago, yakarov79 said:

Isn't it that he said you can modd any way you want as long you not gonna sell and profit ?

The thing was, we can mod any way you like, but we need to revert to the original games, for example, we can create avionics enhancement patches, but they need to be installed over the original games, and they cannot content any of his original files.

poLvlG5.jpg

Look at the date!

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Strike fighters 2 is a good simulator, it has a wide range of fighter planes covering various historical periods. It also has an incredible amount of MODS, which makes the game much better. I think it's graphically much better than Falcon BMS, what SF2 lacks is being put on STEAM and GOG for sale and if it were possible to do just like BMS, partially open code access for the community to improve the game and implement the Multiplayer. The game has great potential because inside it you can simulate an aircraft campaign with Helicopters (community-made mods) like the old EECH (Enemy Engaged), one thing most games don't have.

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Try  making meaningful mods to the game without the source code. Again, Falcon 4's complete source was leaked. Rowan gave out the source code for Battle of Britain and MiG Alley for free. A2A Simulations released the much improved Battle of Britain 2 developed from and continuously improved by community efforts. But MiG Alley never got the same treatment, just a few minor bug fixes and the very useful support for TrackIR.

So, if you want to make a patch that edits the source binaries to include new features, knock yourself out. But this sim has been out for quite some time and I haven't seen a single public release make even the smallest change. I qualify that with "public" because I vaguely remember this strange guy that would post videos and screenshots purporting to show actual game engine changes/improvements. But I have no idea what happened to him or whether his achievements were real or faked.

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Quiet be Jules with pointing the obvious anti-Chinese bend there or you'll get us banned again. I re-read that 2014 topic in it's entirely, the guys pointing that the video is most likely faked in video editing software... gosh.

Crowdfunding eh?

Is SF2 on GOG and Steam since say, 2012? Humble bundle once a blue moon? GamersGate? Itch.io even?
Noooo?
Then good luck with any crowdfunding in the future.

Playerbase is a thing only if you try your best to build yourself one. These days it's game Discord and Twitch channels. If TK is still living in 2002 modem-and-Altavista-search era it's his choice.
Want to argue? Is this harsh statement? Show me the latest "Strike Fighters Legends" official launch trailer on Youtube, please. Or the shiny cinematic high production values "SF 2 Complete" one going viral via network of CombatAce aficionados, how many views does it ha... ahhhh, riiiiiight.


See my point?

Yes, still nice to see TK still pushing the semi-necessary update next year but there are other things that would give him more revenue. Like rebranding/re-launching the possible Win10 edition to break the SF-stigma (I can argue it is a thing) with say added seated VR to it, even limited in capacity. Ever played the House of the Dying Sun, Il2 BOS or even something casual like Overload? Works great with standard controls, mouse even (but can't beat VTOL VR or XP11 in terms of immersion). (And for the VR-haters, sorry the tech is battle proven and stays. Don't like VR? Go back to 2015 with your hate and try harder next time. You lost iteration 2 E3D6 61FE)

Avionics -apart from floating immersion killing HUDs- and FMs are still rock solid as these are when you compare it to anything post-WW2 that is not DCS. Because there is nothing like this on the market. Not yet. Someone finally will notice the gap, TK.
In -flight refueling? Players don't give a crap about in-game refuelling to be honest. Ohh you do? Delusional lot. Sorry to break it to you but you're minority. Three times the charm novelty not worth the resources that could be put into better presentation first and foremost.

And don't even think again about making it "moar realistic" in times of DCS. Just don't. It's futile.

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In -flight refueling? Yeah I know its just a sim; as in real life, one of the hardest to master! When all the players are in the "heat of combat" they're damn glad there are tankers pre and post strike in real life. I for one would love to have a tanker especially after dodging the damn SAMs in burner for post strike/egress! Better immersion big time at least IMO.............."Can't Kick Ass without Tanker Gas"

Do love your mods Stary - Thank you, much appreciated!

NIELS

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6 hours ago, Stary said:

In -flight refueling? Players don't give a crap about in-game refuelling to be honest. Ohh you do? Delusional lot. Sorry to break it to you but you're minority. Three times the charm novelty not worth the resources that could be put into better presentation first and foremost.

I am with you on that! I really don't get the need for in-flight refueling. Users seem to forget that TW's terrains are not full size. All terrains are about 60% of real scale size. By asking TK for a feature like this, you also ask him to remake his terrains from zero in real scale. Not really worth the effort. I'd rather have a refueling and rearming the moment I land at an airbase, arcadish ala Novalogic's light flight sims.

Edited by Menrva
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Why have I never thought of that old school touch and go rearming/refill? Must be memory leaks.
@NIELS I very much understand your stance mate but the amount of work and the can of worms issues it opens when you factor in AI, mods ability etc is really big. Also the maps are really really compressed as Menrva points out.

There are more important things if you want to attract new players, like lack of polished 3d hangar plane selection/loadout management scenes ye olde Novalogic sims / Aces High style etc. TK sort of heads in that direction with mobile offsprings but it is more due to differences between engines used. The SFP1 one doesn't really allow that, sadly.

Interesting thing with that F-16 cockpit view in SFMC mobile reinforcement pack though, sort of if like TK is testing new ideas there.

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3 hours ago, Stary said:

Why have I never thought of that old school touch and go rearming/refill? Must be memory leaks.

LOL! I have recently installed one of Novalogic's sims for it contained some details of a plane skin I'm working on. They are far from being good nowadays under many aspects, but the detailed campaign mission briefings are a nice touch I'd like to have in SF2, alongside 3d hangars.

Off-topic: Stary, time ago I had sent you a PM regarding a project I am working on, and one of your past experiments might be useful for it. I know you're busy with RL, but if you could answer me when possible, I'd really appreciate! Maybe you didn't receive the PM because your inbox is full.

 

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I like Novas F16 F22 and Mig 29  still got em in orig cd cases

im not bothered by refueling in air...I just want it to run proerly and not wonder what next gfx update is going to break next....

Edited by russouk2004
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@Stary & @Menrva - Ya All know more about SF2/WOx V2 series specifics than I do. Makes sense what you mention regarding terrain size. Just one of my 'Wish List' items for this wonderful Air Combat Sim. Appreciate all you guys do for this series to keep it alive and well...............Keep up the good work, well done!

Sincerely, NIELS

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      31. The visual intensity of a fuel, oil, and coolant leaks now corresponds to the actual severity of a leak closer;
      32. When calculating the probabilities of a fuel tank fire and explosion, the different AP, blast and fragments effects are taken into account as well as the amount of the fuel leaking from the tank at the moment. Inert-gas pressurization and other fire countermeasures will be taken into account later when the next level fuel system modeling is finished;
      33. Bf 110 G-2, Bf 110 E-2 and Hs-129 B-2 right engines won’t be excessively damaged by explosion fragments;
      34. P-38J-25: a stabilizer won’t be destroyed by small fluctuating stress loads;
      35. P-38J-25: it is now possible to hit and damage the right engine radiators;
      36. P-51D-15: it is now possible to hit its oil tank and its armored visor is correctly included in the armor protection calculations;
      37. P-51D-15 canopy will appear correctly soiled up by an oil leak both in internal and external views;
      38. P-51D-15 3D-model won’t erroneously show the wing crack;
      39. The landing gear doors on all aircraft are destroyed if landing gear wheels are torn off in retracted position;
      40. Hs 129 B-2: the destruction of the right landing gear door won’t generate the landing gear door debris on the left;
      41. Bf-109 (all series except E7): the loss of the vertical stabilizer and the central part of the horizontal stabilizer is temporarily blocked due to the interdependence of this damage in the 3D model, which makes this point extremely vulnerable to combat damage and causes undesirable results. We will try to move the breaking point above the stabilizer in the future and fix this limitation. Damage to the rudder, elevators and horizontal stabs are still possible and the rudder and elevators can still be detached. And the left and right portions of the horizontal stab can also be lost;
      42. Bf-109 (all series): the mixed up locations where the debris of the landing gear bay doors appear have been corrected;
      43. MiG-3 series 24: the main landing gear bay doors in the wing can also be torn off by an excessive ram air pressure;
      44. Excessive rear hemisphere protection of the Pe-2 gunners from the fragments has been corrected;
      45. Ju-52/3m g4e: the oil level gauges display the correct amount of the oil left even if it is completely gone or after the oil system repair;
      46. Ju-52/3m g4e: first pilot bailing out won’t cause the death of the second pilot and the gunner;

      General Damage Model Improvements (for all objects in the sim)

      47. A complete overhaul of the blast and fragmentation damage, as well as armor penetration damage has been finished, including, but not limited to: correction of calculation errors, calculation speed optimizations, protection of the calculation results for finding possible errors in the initial data;
      48. Insufficient blast damage in case of a very near explosion or inner explosion has been corrected;
      49. The number of fragments hitting an object is correctly calculated basing on the distance to an explosion, including the case of inner explosion;
      50. Now there is a possibility of a ‘stray fragment’ impact when the expectation function gives less than one fragment due to the distance to the explosion (outside the kill area), which is important in a case of multiple explosions;
      51. The armor penetration ability and damage of projectile increases if the resulting impact velocity exceeds the muzzle velocity of a projectile in the reference test data;
      52. The fragmentation damage modeling is made less abstract for all ammunition types: the formation of the fragments, their initial speeds, masses and sizes are calculated and their loss of velocity with the distance traveled is calculated using the modern estimates of their resistance factor and the integration of their movements;
      53. The calculations of the penetration ability of the combined HE and frag damage is also less abstract. Instead of using an empirical parameter, the system now uses the speed, mass, and size of a fragment to model a penetration and the massed impact in case of a near explosion is also modeled;
      54. Since the calculations of the penetration ability and the energy of fragments were changed, the excessive effectiveness of the bombs against armored targets at large distances has been reduced, but a very close explosion is much more effective than before;
      55. The penetration ability of the fragments created by shells containing a small amount of explosives relative to their overall mass was also reduced because of the same reason;
      56. The blast damage calculations use a more accurate power law depending on the distance to the blast center. The damage inflicted by a blast and its ability to break through an armor sheet now drops as the distance increases faster than before, but became much more powerful at very short distances;
      57. Engines, drivetrains, reduction gearboxes, ammo racks and other large pieces of equipment now have their own hard casings modeled where applicable and they can protect them from some damage;
      58. In a rare case of a direct bomb hit at a turret of a flying aircraft, aerostat or a parachute there won’t be a detonation delay that could cause it to explode at a distance to the object;
      59. The severity of a wound depends on the impact area: a head hit is more critical than a body one while a body hit is less severe than it was before;
      60. The crew members experience less pain shock from wounds and impacts;

      Player controllable tanks improvements

      61. The death of a radio operator now blocks the external communications;
      62. Pz.III-L and T-34 STZ tanks ammo racks now are damageable;
      63.The physical collision model of the Pz.III-L turret now correctly rotates together with the visual model of the turret;
      64. The physical collision model of the T-34 STZ main gun barrel now correctly corresponds to its visual model;
      65. The M4A2 commander’s machine gun can be damaged;
      66. In the event of a catastrophic detonation, the turret flying away from Pz.III-L and T-34 STZ tanks will be visually damaged;
      67. A knocked out machine gun won’t incorrectly cause the death of its operator;
      68. The issue that could result in the destruction of a tank when its main gun and coaxial MG are knocked out has been found and fixed;
      69. Several commands of the tank commander (for example, "Attack ground targets on sight") will work even if the mission script doesn’t include any commands for this tank;
      70. Several non-working technochat messages about turret systems failure and repair (coaxial machine gun, main and backup turret traverse, vertical aiming mechanism, etc.) have been fixed;
      71. Pz.Kpfw.III.Ausf.M, Pz.Kpfw.IV.Ausf.G and M4A2 tracks tension is correctly animated (it was reversed);
      72. The tank radio transmitter failure makes the communication with other tanks of the unit impossible;
      73. Viewing instruments on KV-1s tanks made more detailed;
      74. The issue with KV-1s tracks visibly moving in the opposite direction when accelerating has been minimized;
      75. The casing of the various large systems (engine, gearbox, ammunition) can protect them from shell fragments;
      76. An additional armor sheet on the front hull of the KV-1s is now modeled;

      AI Improvements

      77. The AI pilots of the high-speed aircraft now try to use their advantage over significantly slower aircraft using the hit and run tactics;
      78. The AI pilots of the high-speed aircraft aim better when firing the guns;
      79. A failed bombing run won’t cause an AI-controlled bomber to fly beyond the map borders;
      80. An AI pilot estimates the time required to destroy a ground target better;
      81. The AI pilots won’t try to move the control surfaces of a crashed aircraft;
      82. P-51D AI pilot will always close the canopy before taking off;
      83. Gunners won’t do unnecessary motions when bailing out;
      84. Additional improvements were made in the ground vehicle obstacle avoidance algorithm;
      85. A rare issue that could cause vehicles of a column to move directly North after an emergency stop has been found and fixed;
      86. AI-controlled ground based guns and MGs aim better in heavy wind weather conditions;
      87. 76mm and 77mm AAA of World War I era aim better;

      Visual aircraft models improvements

      88. The bomb control panel on all Bf 109 3D-models is now hidden in the outside view if no bombs are installed;
      89. The right landing gear wheel of the Bf 109 E-7 is no longer visible from a large distance when the right wing is lost;
      90. The Bf-109 G-14 canopy cable looks correct when the canopy is open;
      91. The gap between the bomb holder and Fw 190 A3 and Fw 190 A5 fuselages has been removed;
      92. The gear wheels of the chain drive of the He-111 bomb bay doors are animated now;
      93. The An-4 compass on Pe-2s has a functioning backlight now;
      94. The excessive visibility of IL-2 mod. 1943 at large distances caused by a wrong glare setting has been corrected;
      95. The rear navigation light of the La-5FN won’t be visible from the cockpit;
      96. A damaged LaGG-3 won’t appear to have through holes when zooming out;
      97. The Yak-1b rear wheel trace on the ground won’t visually thicken when zooming out;
      98. P-51D and Tempest radio station bulbs made brighter when turned on;
      99. An incorrect flare visual effect on the P-51D fuselage has been fixed;
      100. An incorrect flare visual effect on the Fokker D.VII wingtips has been fixed;
      101. Left ailerons of Fokker D.VII and Fokker D.VIIF won’t cause visible z-fighting effect;
      102. S.E.5a: a dead or unconscious pilot or gunner won’t clip through a cabin side;
      103. The animation of the 2000-pound bomb M66 impeller has been fixed;

      Other aircraft changes

      104. Another error that could cause the hits on the own aircraft to be not audible in multiplayer has been found and fixed;
      105. When in the cockpit, the player will now hear different sounds when different parts (materials) of the aircraft are hit different types of ammunition (before that, sounds differed only by the type of ammunition and only in open cockpits or in an external view);
      106. The ram air sounds in the cockpits of all aircraft have been re-adjusted, the sound changes depending on the state of the canopy (open or closed) as well as the position of the pilot's head relatively to the windscreen;
      107. The positioning of the engine sounds in the cockpits has been improved as well;
      108. Bf 109 G-6 in-cockpit sounds were corrected;
      109. The issue with the pilots posing in weird ways should be gone now;
      110. Ju-88 top shooter won’t continue to fire when the canopy and the MGs are jettisoned;
      111. It is now possible to shoot a signal flare after opening the IL-2 mod.1943 cockpit;
      112. The trace of an aircraft after a belly landing won’t disappear when zooming in;
      113. Flying Circus planes will correctly show the dust from wheels effect;
      114. P-51D wheels leave correct traces and their dust effects were corrected;
      115. Opened P-51D landing gear bays cause less drag;
      116. Bomb detonator switches are no longer inverted on P-51D;
      117. A-20B, La-5 series 8 and La-5FN: it’s now possible to move the throttle control when it is in the idle position and ‘Engine auto control’ helper is enabled in the options;
      118. FFB vibrations increased during control surfaces buffeting at terminal flight speeds;
      119. Now a crewless aircraft will be removed from the simulation when it stays on the ground for 30 seconds (previously it was removed when its altitude was less than 10 meters and speed less than 10 meters per second);

      Ground and naval objects

      120. Projectiles of the multi-barreled anti-aircraft guns visually appear aligned with the positions of the individual barrels;
      121. Tanks and trucks won’t leave marks on concrete surfaces;
      122. Vehicles won’t create so much dust when moving on concrete and paved surfaces;
      123. TRG_Spawn mission logic element won’t cause the spawned vehicles to have visual effects of a damaged engine;
      124. The issue of random destruction of a train in QMB has been found and fixed;
      125. Simple AI-controlled ground vehicles won’t visibly ‘shudder’ when moving on steep slopes, especially on the Prokhorovka map;
      126. Sd Kfz 251 Wurfrahmen 40 rockets launch correctly visually;
      127. The upper and lower armor of simple AI tanks has been corrected (made more resistant to fragments);
      128. The visual model of a static railway tank has been updated (its frame);
      129. The static T-34 model texture that appears at a certain distance has been corrected;
      130. Railway wagons and locomotives won’t receive critical damage from any first hit;
      131. A graphical corruption caused by G-5 gunboat firing its M-8M rockets has been fixed;
      132. The issue that could make the naval guns indestructible has been found and fixed;
      133. Ships that run aground will stop earlier and won’t display water wake effects;
      134. A random issue with the parachute not completely descending to the ground has been fixed;

      Other changes

      135. VR zoom can be made instantaneous if the default speed gives you nausea - set the value of the vr_zoom_speed parameter to 1 (it is located in the camera section in data\startup.cfg file);
      136. Ricochet sounds and graphic effects were added;
      137. The physical collision models of the European suburban buildings in some blocks on the Arras map now correspond to their visual models;
      138. The trees that prevented takeoff and landing were removed at the end of the strip of the Florennes airfield;
      139. Bailed out pilots can be correctly captured by the enemy in the Bodenplatte career;
      140. MCU_Waypoint mission logic element won’t receive input from other elements when deactivated.
       
      Please discuss the update in this thread.
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