SF 4.33 idea for the Admins...

[+Stary]

to expand on the SF2+ thing that reappears here on about yearly basis:

 

some things that would make SF2 more in line with say FC2* are pretty straightforward and dare I say simple to do:

 

in order of importance it would be this

(I know I know you might be now thinking "Stary you dumbass dreamer, you post the same things over and over again" to which I politely reply: Yes I do, because I can't fathom why we all got few years long brainfart back in last days of 2008 and haven't called on TK   for not introducing those in SF    fucking  2; emphasis mine)  

 

-proper reticle / HUD displays which actually keep displayed on the combiner glass -see Il2, LOMAC, Aces High and any other sim after 2000s; I find floating piper the biggest offender and immersion killer in the series

-like the above proper MILS drop representation. Aiming with reticle displayed through dashboard is uhh ohhh immersion killer

-crude A2G locking -this can be really, really dumbed down to have the very same procedure and keys like A2A, you just are able to lock onto the biggest ground returns cycling randomly through them like in A2A mode; possible to lock on smaller structures too with more advanced radars (ini edits)

-very simple E/O targetting in a similar way as A2G -edit: every EO weapon seem to have the search limits/fov already implemented so no brainer

-dedicated RIO voicing with his additional SA (situation awarness) helpers akin to the very good and immersive implementation of Fighters Anthology; don't have to go more hardcore

-basic ejection sequencing and thus chutes (don't have to be destroyable)

-possibility to add effects to game events -say dust rise to tires etc together with linked sound effects (again, tires screech)

-posibility for mixed salvo A2A missile ripples, esp for ruskies birds

edit: fast rockets ripple/semi full burst with proper rockets dispersion -if say 16 rockets almost at once would cause too much of effect impact I can live without effect at all if I can have them all flying at once over larger (dispersion modelling) area

-destroyable real 3D TOD objects (not that important any longer for me but would be nice)

-higher than DEM30 resolution input format and additions to Terrain Engine (specular and normal maps for tiles! clouds/weather systems redo with shadowing) keeping the wang tiles format (BMS can still look fabulous with those)

 

however things I would NOT like to see introduced in such upgrade is:

 

-A2A refueling

-A2A refueling

-POINTLESS in moddable titles spanning 50 years of aviation and taking forever to program A2A refueling. Don't agree it's pointless? Re-read the moddable titles spanning 50 years of aviation bit and let your mushy mushy and presumably yummy yummy brains do the thinking

 

there Aces, done

*I hope we can agree FC2 is similar but better in avionics modelling but sucks as far as FM goes, aye?

Edited March 27, 2016 by Stary

[+Stratos]

Amen to that!!

[+Veltro2k]

Too bad we cant incorporate all our Mods into the IL2 engine

Edited March 27, 2016 by Veltro2k

[Snailman]

I think I suggested the very same thing two years ago.

 

Then I was told that TK would never sell his stuff or any money, just to cross the modders who "ruined his business". I don't know how much of this is true. But just think about the price...

 

I don't know how much a programmer and a 3D artist is payed in the US, but I guess at least 10 times more than me. That's about 5000$. If he works for a year, that's 60000$.   But it's not a one man job, let's think about only four people. that's 240000$ per year. They have been working on it for three years (as I heard they had losses, sold cars and flats), so  1.000.000$ is a very low price for that. I would say, he would not sell it without a profit gained, and a personal - sentimental overprice + let the damn modders bleed -

 

maybe for 2.5-3 millah, probably.  That needs every one of us to pay 3-5000$ per person - for me that's a year's savings

 

Kickstarter would be a good idea, but I don't know about how it works. Anyway, how to anounce it?  "We are buying out TK from SF2 - for non profit use"

 

 

And, gentlemen (and any lurking ladies) Here comes the main problem, I also mentioned several times.

 

We have to buy TK and his work as well.

 

WHY?

 

Because he did the prog. He knows hidden unfinished code. He knows what he did and why.  Believe me, I was member of a open source game testing and developing community... To get into someone else's code and modify that IS A HELL.

 

1. You fix a bug - three appears

2. You add a feature - to ruin two others and a bug appears. GOTO 1.

3. Often the very foundation of the game, the skeleton is not appropriate - or simply unusable to add a certain variable or concept. Symptom.. GOTO 2.

 

 

What I suggest is - Develop an idea, a concept of a new game. Together. THEN Kickstart it. We have our brainpower, skills and free time to add, and some personal funds.

 

Actually I have a concept under "development" dates back to 10 years, I can elaborate a little more then I publish it in a different topic.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Snailman

[+Stary]

2-3mil?    more like 50K, at least that's the price I have heard from source I trust TK said to one guy asking about the engine license to get rid of the guy.

 

2-3 mil per license pushes this alot more into Ubi territory and less into 1 coder 2-3 artists one

 

you know what would be cheaper? Vehicle Simulator framework license -or Unity which is free but not really sim framework out of the box. There is also that Blender Game Engine soviet planes sim group effort floating in the russian speaking corners of the web but can't say how it progresses

 

edit:

 

what would be even cheaper would be simply fixing SF2 code...

Edited March 27, 2016 by Stary

[Trotski]

I seem to remember similar discussions on European air War when that was alive and kicking, there was a huge modder base and fan base with that sim too, I like flight sims like DCS and Rise of flight, but sometimes those sims are just too technical, and , well to be frank fussy, so I end up coming back the SF2 and FE2, purely because it is a nice , enjoyable, non over complicated flight sim, with a great fan base, and a well establish modding community, yes ok, it isn't perfect, or in a lot of cases accurate, however it IS fun, it is easy to just load up, and tootle around, kill some stuff, and fly home, the add on Campaigns are good fun, and the graphics aren't too shabby, especially if you have an older pc. However, as with all computer games and sims, it does have a life span, and unless we can bring the sim into the present day with mods etc, and keep it up there with patches etc. the sim will eventually die a death, especially as pc' graphics cards and operating systems change. I don't want to see the game die, and if needs be I shall keep this pc going as long as I can to allow me to play , the same as I have an old win xp based pc, so I can play silent hunter 3 with no great hassles. I don't know what the answer is, or how we as a community will approach it, but I do think it is worth it. but would I want to pay out 5 or 600 quid to get a share ?......I would if I could, but I cant so I shan't . I cant see TK selling up, especially if he blames the modding community for his losses. Myself, I think that is just an excuse, but hey ho.

[+Stratos]

Guys forget about raising money, it has been discussed before and it ain't gonna work, we CA and maybe even Capun site cannot raise enough money to buy the code from TK, I asked TK before and price was pretty high, out of our reach. Also we need to think that outside people will not be interested in putting money, as SF is outdated, so what we have left? Mod the game and see if that locked content can be used to develop better content for the game, Stary already exposed some excellent points, so we must wait and see what we can do. I think we need to search for those avionics/gameplay updates as 3d models, skins, campaigns, etc are already amazing. Imagine for example ODS big mod with proper NVG, A-G radar, working EOS systems...

 

Where are we now? Only Mue knows how to open those locked files, I exposed here for everyont to see my mail to TK, I think everyone agrees in that he doesn't care what we do with his locked files but  we have to do it right, so open those files and see what we can do with them, and then release a patch with the new updates that requires the original games installed, this way we get a updated sim, and TK does not lose his files. That's my 2 cents.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Stratos

[Snailman]

For just 50K?  That's nothing. Hard to believe... He made a lot more than that on Android sales... didn't he? 

 

Cheaper.. yes. Pay TK to fix his stuff and improve. But.  IF we could talk to him and persuade and offer a realistic sum for his work.  IF it is possible to talk him.  That's what I suggested that time, but the topic died(

[+Wrench]

 

 

just to cross the modders who "ruined his business"

 

Wow. That's the first time i've ever even heard of this....

I sure would love to have that explained

[Trotski]

if the files are able to be opened, and therefore modded, and as long as no profit is made from any "locked" files which I don't for one minute would be the case, I see no real need to purchase anything from TK, as long as you have written and public permission to mod, I say just do it, and I am sure amongst us there is plenty of ability and talent to do the necessary work for a "Superpatch" or whatever else you wish to call it, I am sure there is much that can be done with the Sim, that will improve it, and bring it up to a more modern standard, I for one am more than happy to contribute time to it, and I know a lot of others are too.  

 

 

And yes Kev, I would like to hear the explanations behind this, its not the first time I have heard it mentioned, so is it just rumour control, or is it fact ?

Edited March 27, 2016 by trotski00

[+Stary]

Wow. That's the first time i've ever even heard of this....

I sure would love to have that explained

Kevin, don't pretend you don't know what Snailman meant and what elephant in the room he pointed at.

 

or you don't realise how TK somewhere around release of expansion packs or during making of NA cursed and wished he never made the titles moddable? Check how the mobile titles are designed.

 

Now Kevin, here's a hint from fellow dedicated modder of the series: there are programmers that know how to utilise their at the peak massive fanbase and build their profit and business model around it and there are those who piss at their fanbase after it grows too big to control.

[+JonathanRL]

or you don't realise how TK somewhere around release of expansion packs or during making of NA cursed and wished he never made the titles moddable? Check how the mobile titles are designed.

 

I have still not forgotten that TK locked out NA Scripts from the base game with a fucking patch after I thanked him for not locking out the NA Scripts.

 

Twat.

[mue]

Only the LOD and shader (*.fx) files were locked. The shader files are now extractable with my cat extractor. The LOD files I keep still locked. Unlocking the LOD files doesn't help in any way with adding new functionality (avionics,...).

Without the source code to add new functionality one has to modify the binaries (*.exe, *.dll). But thats way too time consuming (at least for me).

The only option I see for extending the game is to get access to the source code. E.g. Team Daidalos, BMS, EECH-modders, all have access to source code.

Maybe one day TK will release the source code.....just dreaming...

 

I have still not forgotten that TK locked out NA Scripts from the base game with a fucking patch after I thanked him for not locking out the NA Scripts.

Twat.

 

What NA Scripts do you mean? Only LOD and shader files were locked in the cat files. Or do I miss somthing?

Edited March 28, 2016 by mue

[Snailman]

 

Re: No more Pc développement ?

Postby ThirdWire » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:07 pm

Guys, we appreciate all your input, but please stop making it so personal. Its not about what I want, its about what we can afford. If we don't finish EXP3, its not because I don't want to, or I somehow hate you, or I'm hurt, or anything else personal like that, its simply because we don't have the money do so.

 

Threads like this remind us why we don't post here anymore. I know you guys have short selective memory, but there was a time not too long ago when we used to post here often and even in other forums, but every time we do, threads like this come up and remind us how terrible idea that is.

 

When we talk about future plans, its about what we would like to do if we have the money. Its never a promise of anything. We never promised EXP3, only that we'd love to do EXP3, if EXP2 and SF2NA did well.

 

Even though SF2NA is our best seller so far, and EXP2 is selling better than EXP1, SF2NA and EXP2 haven't recovered their investment yet - they sold about 25% more than their predecessors, but they also cost about 200% more. All those features everyone was requesting here added significantly to the cost but didn't result in matching increase in sales. So the money from PC sales are still going toward paying back all the debts we've incurred during their development. We had to take out loans, max out credit cards, sell our cars, empty our retirement accounts, and we are still falling behind in rents and payments. If it wasn't for the mobile games, we would've been out of business last year and be homeless by now.

 

Cost of developing games are constantly going up. SF2 aircraft, for example, cost more than 4x the SF1 aircraft. And our market size is not expanding at a similar rate. It's not rocket science to figure out that at some point, the cost to develop gets higher than they sell. Looking back, EXP1 was about where it crossed that line for us. So not only we don't have the money to finish EXP3, but we already know for sure that EXP3 will lose money. It has to be paid for by something else.

 

Luckily, mobile games are doing very well so far - we are just getting started there and we already have over 1.2 million downloads combined. A single one day download of one mobile game often exceed the total, life-long downloads of all our PC games combined. And the cost to develop there still very low. So we are still planning to finish EXP3, but it'll be done if and when our mobile games make enough money to pay for it (well, after paying back all our debts first).

 

To answer to the original topic, of course we're still working on PC development, especially with Windows 8. But keep in mind that the direction we're going may not be what many of you want. We're working to make our game more accessible and easier to play to appeal to a bigger market, and rely more on in-app purchases for monetizing, which means less realistic features and less support for mods in the future. Again, it's nothing personal, its just what we can afford. And like you said, 13 years is a long time to be working on one thing, and it may be time we do something else, there are plenty of other genres of games that we'd love to work on (ones that doesn't cost so much to develop).

 

This tells all.  He says he has no money to develop - but I doubt he would accept money to "do what we want him to do"... sorry I can't tell it better in english. You get the point I think. I would still try to convince him not flush down everything on the toilet what kept his game alive on PC.

If not, then then just start a new Combat Ace project.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Snailman

[+JonathanRL]

What NA Scripts do you mean? Only LOD and shader files were locked in the cat files. Or do I miss somthing?

Campaign Scripts like Crusie Missile attacks and ship task forces was in a patch unlocked for all players of SF2 regardless if they owned NA or not. Another patch locked this so it required NA.

 

I need to do a recent test of this of course but last time I checked, you needed SF2: NA to have naval task forces and missions supporting them in the game and this was not the case right after SF2: NA released its first patch.

[Trotski]

Ok, so you need NA to unlock certain stuff in game, you cannot moan about that, or accuse TK of "locking" the game up, as it appears to me that it was done that way to promote sales of NA, the development team need to make money, and it is a product made to earn money, so, if ist mainly the LODS that are locked up, who cares, loads of you guys are able to make new aircraft, pilots, weapons , terrain etc etc. so where is the issue here ? TK has mad it clear he isn't worried about we as a community, modding, or improving the game, far from it, all he wishes to ensure, as I see it, is that no profit ( which is rightfully his and the development teams) is made from anything we do. So if the code is openable, and pretty much everything else is, except for the bits that Mue is keeping locked ( very wisely) why do we even need to think about purchasing the rights , the price would be astronomical, and un feasible, for a sim that is what 6 -7 years old now ? it would be like buying a 1970's Ford escort and putting go faster stripes on it. So, lets just work with what we have, we do very well as it is with the new campaigns ( A new Scandinavian front is on its way for example) new and interesting aircraft are do-able and SF is still a good flight sim, just don't try making a Volkswagen Beetle ino a Porche 911, its not ever gonna happen.

[+JonathanRL]

I can sure has hell complain about it if he at first UNLOCKS it. It is not like its vital stuff like LODs or Airplanes. It was mission types and the ability to have naval task forces. Its not a big deal for him - but for us modders it is.

Since you DO mention TSF - Anybody who does not have SF2: NA is because of this going to have a subpar experience since the unique and interesting Swedish ASMs cannot be used as they are supposed to.

[Do335]

aha more flight sim politics eh? This is like a monthly period thread. So for this month's period I'll drop this bomb:

 

 

1. You fix a bug - three appears

2. You add a feature - to ruin two others and a bug appears. GOTO 1.

3. Often the very foundation of the game, the skeleton is not appropriate - or simply unusable to add a certain variable or concept. Symptom.. GOTO 2.

 

Amen to this. It is a problem for every community project no matter big or small. The erosion to stability is huge.

 

And you have no way to fix it, because --> it is locked yet again in the code. Just not TK's code. But someone else's. And bear in mind, this someone else, he is NOT obligated to do your tech support, he is NOT obligated to patch his bugs, because you are NOT his customer. He can just troll you to GTFO, or just ignores everything, if he pleases, or introduce a multitude of bugs and disappear forever, because simple: beggars can't be choosers.

 

So, to the "uninitiated" newbie players in the field of free community source code modding, when you dream up of some saint of a coder is gonna come and drop free pies from the sky (pffffft...), keep in mind that nothing is really free. More importantly, the freebies you get depend on who issues them. Some people are very talented and dedicated, and you get all those success stories about commercially dead sims getting a second and better life. But there're also just ppl that don't have much dedication and just like to mess around, make a half-assed code mod etc and disappears.

 

Now a question bomb: what kind will SF get, the former, or the latter???

 

 

PS What's my point? If wanna try a new sim that is still being developed, look elsewhere! If you wanna try mods, stay! But the source code while it doesn't progress, is happily stable, and it is totally fine to stay that way. Some day when windows12 or something gets out and everybody moves on from incompatibility issues etc, that is fine. There are/will be other sims/games.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Do335

[Trotski]

What Do335 said !! I totally get jonathans frustrations, I really do, but like Do335 just said, the code and the intellectual property of the sim, belong to a third party, and as such, are his to lock, unlock, release or not release as HE chooses, yes sometimes there are things done by developers, that rub modders up the wrong way, and yes maybe he did change the code about just to annoy the modding community, but that is a matter of opinion, it may also just be happenstance that he was planning on doing that anyhow, I refer you back to my comment about games ( in general) are a business , and not just something to do for the love of it, the idea is to make money doing it , and to my mind, it just appears that is precisely what has occurred here, the sim has run at a loss, as is well known, and has actually caused the development team financial hardship. So going with that idea, obviously TK was going to do anything to keep his profit margin in the black, and he in such a case would have very little concern for the modders , and I am sorry, but I can see his point and logic there, also it does seem to me, that he isn't at all anti modding, on the contrary, he is happy for us to do it, as long as we don't profit from it, which is fair play in my book. If however, the sim was running at a healthy profit, and was a good money spinner, and THEN  he wasdoing thing deliberately to make modding more difficult , then I would agree with the whole "it's not fair, feet stamping" but I have seen no real evidence of this happening, of course I am a newish face in this field of modding, even though I have been a user of SF and ~FE for many years now, and I repeat, this is a sim, that is  NOT DCS, or Falcon 4 or IL2, it is never going to be a  "high level " press a button to scratch your arse sim, it is what it is, and it is moddable, so therefore, we have to work with what we have, and bloody hell guys, c'mon, we do a pretty decent job with it after all, and the sim is still a lovely sim, and one of my firm favourites, as I don't wish to fly a sim, where I have to press 10 million keys just to lock a bogey up, I just want a sim that is  A. fun, B. easy to work with, C. easy to mod , and D. long lived.....I thing SF, and FE both, fill these requirements, so, lets just crack on, and keep her flying as long as we can.

[+Stratos]

Only the LOD and shader (*.fx) files were locked. The shader files are now extractable with my cat extractor. The LOD files I keep still locked. Unlocking the LOD files doesn't help in any way with adding new functionality (avionics,...).

Without the source code to add new functionality one has to modify the binaries (*.exe, *.dll). But thats way too time consuming (at least for me).

The only option I see for extending the game is to get access to the source code. E.g. Team Daidalos, BMS, EECH-modders, all have access to source code.

Maybe one day TK will release the source code.....just dreaming...

 

 

What NA Scripts do you mean? Only LOD and shader files were locked in the cat files. Or do I miss somthing?

 

 

Thanks Mue for explaining that, it makes clear that SF development is totally dead.

[+Stary]

Do335, while you rise certain valid points, the fact it's 6-7 years old has nothing to do with usability and possible gain in quality fixes would bring

 

I wonder how much could be done via shaders alone, thining abvout the HUD issues etc

[Trotski]

Yeah Strat, but only official development from the originator is dead, and by what TK said in that email, if he were to develop it further, it would only be to dumb it down and make it more accessible.....what ever the hell that means, so, in that case, it is maybe a good thing he isn't interested in further development, as we want to un dumb it so to speak........I say work with what we have got, ok it may not be an ideal thing, but its what we have , and buying the rights I really don't see as an option at all, it would be a waste of a shitload of money to be honest.

[+Viper63a]

A lot of good comments, background, concerns, and hopes. So what changed in this go round. I think something changed. Did we change the rules or are we still locked in the old rules? Where do we, safely and legally, go from here, if anywhere.

 

I hear we can do pretty much anything we want (can) as long as we don't make money? But! Some things should remain locked?

 

V

[+Stratos]

Hacking the code is very very hard and time consuming without the source code, si it ain't gonna happen.

[stuntman]

Being able to access the lod and locked stuff is already a good start, would we have TK's agreement. Also, i recently found a way to access and extract apk content. There is really good moddinng material in there. Before describing the procedure, I was thinking about trying to reach TK to see if he would agree to use this content as a basis for making mods. As i said in an other thread, I would be ready to let him distribute my mods, my only wish is to let new content being released.